Hacker Newsnew | past | comments | ask | show | jobs | submitlogin
Apple to 'pay' OpenAI for ChatGPT through distribution, not cash (bnnbloomberg.ca)
68 points by belter on June 13, 2024 | hide | past | favorite | 85 comments


It sort of makes sense but can be risky for OpenAI. I suspect that there are limits to this deal. For example, Apple will pay x amount if conversion rate is lower than x.

You're adding a few billion devices to do inference for if you're OpenAI without knowing the conversion rate from free to paid ChatGPT accounts from Apple users.

Also, can OpenAI really handle that much more traffic? Sometimes my paid ChatGPT account stalls or is slow even as of June 2024. Now they're going to add a few billion more users/devices at once. That's insane. How are they going to do this?


Not billion(s), because Apple Intelligence will only work on Apple Silicon (Mx) Mac and iPad and iPhone 15 Pro. Also, initially only in en_US devices.

I’ve heard 100 mi figure, but can’t confirm/remember where.


There are three models:

1. Apple On-Device

2. Apple Server

3. GPT-4o

Apple Silicon/Mx, iPad, iPhone 15 Pro can access all three.

All other devices can still access Apple Server and GPT-4o. So, I'd expect the incompatible devices to actually hammer OpenAI more.


Other devices are not getting Apple Intelligence.


Apple Intelligence doesn't use OpenAI


> As a result of the company's partnership with OpenAI, Apple Intelligence includes an integration with ChatGPT, allowing Siri to determine when to send certain complex user requests to ChatGPT.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Intelligence


OpenAI does not power Apple Intelligence. Apple Intelligence will pass of queries to OpenAI (with explicit user permission) in certain circumstances where it feels OpenAI would have a better answer.


Acceptance is the first step in grieving the loss of a beloved business.


> OpenAI does not power Apple Intelligence.

This is a strawman. No one on this thread said it does.

That said, it does - even if only partially, even if only with explicit permission, even if only in certain circumstances.


Do Siri queries not fall back to GPT4o in older devices? That seems weird because the inference is done in the cloud.

But 100m figure seems small. There are ~100m Apple Silicon Macs sold in the last 4 years. That's not including any M1+ iPads or iPhone 15 Pros.

I'm guessing maybe 250m? Still a ton of queries and usage. It's not just Siri. I believe features like optimize email response also uses GPT4o.


Email, etc, is all Apple inference, the presentation strongly implied that was on-device. The system always explicitly asks “Ok to send this query to OpenAI?” or user initiated request.

I think the Apple server inference is handling things like image generation where you need a beefy guy to get results quickly, and don’t need to transmit as much user context to service the request.


I'm pretty sure there is an option to ask ChatGPT to do inferencing for Email, etc.

If I'm a paid ChatGPT user, I'd definitely choose GPT4 over Apple's models.


There isn't anything like that currently - The integration that's been announced/shown is more like the current fallback in Siri of "Would you like me to Google that for you?"


No, there is - from official Apple Intelligence announcement:

> With ChatGPT from OpenAI integrated into Siri and Writing Tools, you get even more expertise when it might be helpful for you — no need to jump between tools. Siri can tap into ChatGPT for certain requests, including questions about photos or documents. And with Compose in Writing Tools, you can create and illustrate original content from scratch.

https://www.apple.com/apple-intelligence/


I watched WWDC and clearly, GPT4 is an option for inferencing email/text at the OS level. It's not just Siri fallback.


They’ve been explicit that only some knowledge related requests get sent to OpenAI, and only after the user has been asked “ok to send this to ChatGPT?”

If they allowed your private email contents or any other private context to leak outside their encrypted enclave (local or their new online hardware) then the entire set of privacy claims would go out the window.


Sure, but they're not all en_US. I've got three on my desk right now*, and I'm in Germany.

* got one of my own right before a previous employer closed down and let us keep the work one, third one is from new employer


Apple Intelligence won't be limited to en_US right? It should be available world wide.


Eventually, but not initially. I read this thread as if it was about the initial release, not the end-state.

(Given how rapidly AI changes, anything more than a year away isn't easily planned for, even assuming no surprises on the anti-trust front for every Big Tech company nor any surprise new legal obligations for AI).


Does it need to be sold in the US or simply chaning os settings to use the en_US language is enough to activate this ? I'm in europe but working mostly in english and therfore I set my mac in english. Could I use Apple Intelligence ?


Per Apple's site [1], it's just the language setting:

"* Apple Intelligence will be available in beta on iPhone 15 Pro, iPhone 15 Pro Max, and iPad and Mac with M1 and later, with Siri and device language set to U.S. English, as part of iOS 18, iPadOS 18, and macOS Sequoia this fall."

[1]: https://www.apple.com/apple-intelligence/


> Also, can OpenAI really handle that much more traffic

Microsoft Azure is handling the traffic.

And Apple would never enter into such a deal without proper capacity planning.


Satya Nadella subsidizing Apple AI. Did not see that one coming....


Microsoft and Apple have had a great relationship for decades.

And Satya would love nothing more than to drive Apple and Google apart.


I'm pretty sure Apple publicly said that they're also considering Google Gemini.

It's possible that Apple sees it as a future app store-like revenue. You can use any AI model you want, and if you want to subscribe to Gemini Pro or ChatGPT Plus, Apple takes 30%.

I was certain that Apple wants to create their own cutting edge LLM to compete with GPT4 or Gemini or Claude or Mixtral. But they've decided to instead, open up all their platforms to 3rd party models.

I suppose Apple may still want to create an Apple Intelligence Pro in the future but their models aren't leading at the moment.


Not sure why people keep seeing this situation through the App Store lens.

Apple has had countless partnerships over the years eg. Foursquare, Google, Sensis that don't require a 15/30% commission.

It doesn't even make sense how or why they would implement an IAP flow directly into the OS.


Everything is driven by money. Not relationships or random beliefs.


They are getting the data through their wires. That's why Apple make so much effort about anonymization - it's not guarantied by contract. best free RHLF OpenAI can get my 2c.


There was a press release on the same day talking about how Oracle, Microsoft and OpenAI have a deal for burst capacity. That may be connected.


I wonder if VCs will be the ones left holding the bag at the end of this AI cycle.

You have hyperscalers "investing" in AI startups with compute credits, Nvidia "investing" in AI startups (who spend most of it on buying/renting their GPUs) and now this Apple deal.


They are actually making money on their long NVDA position (which is the real game), and channeling VC investments into semi capex.


Did VCs end up holding the bag at the end of the mobile revolution hype cycle?


What is different here is that the non-VC investors investments are being recycled back into their goods&services see: cloud credits, buying NVDA compute, etc.

I don't think we had a similar pattern in the mobile era. Did Apple ever invest in an app in exchange for App Store fee credits or some dubious scrip like that? I don't think so.


Didn’t VC money mostly go to Google and FB ads in the past?

Now they’re buying compute.


From the article, it sounds like Apple aims to create an "AI App Store", where the users can choose the AI Supplier thmeselves instead of only beeing locked in to "Apple Intelligence". I think its a smart move to build an AI platform instead of beeing an AI supplier by themselves.


FYI, it's "being" not "beeing", unless you are a keeper of bees, perhaps, making honey.


I would think the keeper would be keeping and the bees themselves would be beeing.


That is indeed a valid definition one could create for this word which does not exist in modern language.


Looking forward to see it appear on next LLM generated texts....Any reason is good, to convince the AI lords that humans are not useless...


Thanks :) Apple does many things but they don't seem to keep bees.


Can't read the article, but the way they described it in the WWDC Keynote, you _are_ locked into Apple Intelligence on eligible devices for all the stuff Apple Intelligence actually does. The "AI App Store" only comes into play for specific questions that Apple Intelligence punts on and then tells you, "I can't answer this, do you want to query an AI Supplier?" Apple is not giving you the option of selecting a back-end AI Supplier for all AI-related stuff on the device.


Apple Intelligence is the name of that "AI App Store" platform [1].

Many comments in this thread are conflating Apple's own models and the name "Apple Intelligence" when the latter is the overarching platform.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Intelligence


End state: OpenAI would probably love to see its subscription cost bundled into an Apple service plan [1]

Pitch: “add Apple Intelligence+ which includes ChatGPT/Anthropic/Bard premium subscription for _only_ $99/mo!!1”

[1] https://www.apple.com/apple-one/


In a few years there will be tens of thousand of ai vendors just like there are apps/games ?


One of the top richest companies in the world, who don't even know what to do with their money[1], don't want to pay for things.

[1]: https://www.businessinsider.com/two-years-ago-steve-jobs-cal...


I wrote in "Apple Strategy in a Nutshell"[1] that this deal is awful for OpenAI. Not getting paid obviously makes it worse for them, and more favorable for Apple.

[1] https://nextword.substack.com/p/apples-ai-strategy-in-a-nuts...


I think that what OpenAI is getting in return is their brand name being featured prominently in one of the top selling smartphone brands in the world.

The other wildcard here is that OpenAI will likely exit in some way, most likely by acquisition. Who knows, maybe Apple would buy them.

If I were to defend OpenAI's decision to work with Apple, I would say that Apple's ability to do gap analysis won't necessarily help them catch up with OpenAI's capabilities. If this was the case, Apple would have figured out how to make a better modem than Qualcomm by now.


I don’t think OpenAI company structure would allow an acquisition per se, although how much they bend the rules (such as with Microsoft) has not been tested


It's so bizarrely awful for OpenAI that you almost start to wonder what the auxiliary value of a few million iPhone user's data is.

But as Scarlett Johansson taught us; OpenAI will always ask first. And then they will do whatever they want anyways, regardless of what you respond with.


Apple was being pressured by Wall Street to make move here, so you'd think they'd have the weak hand. However, by the time they moved, there were 3-4 vendors Apple could play off each other.


> Apple was being pressured by Wall Street

No, they weren’t. To the extent there was financial pressure it was in iPhone sales.


2 of the top 3 most valuable public companies have AI front and center. Where's your evidence?



It seems like Apple played this very well and are going to treat LLM the way they do search. At some point the LLMs will be bidding for placement on iOS devices, like the Google search deal.


Can’t wait to see those documents and emails to appear in a discovery as part of yet another anti trust lawsuit


> there were 3-4 vendors Apple could play off each other.

Which 3-4 vendors?


ChatGPT first.

  In conversation with reporters after the WWDC keynote, Apple's senior VP of software engineering Craig Federighi revealed that as Apple Intelligence evolves, the company eventually wants to give its users a choice between different AI models, and suggested that Google Gemini could be an option in the future.

  "We think ultimately people are going to have a preference for certain models they want to use, maybe one that's great for creative writing or one that they prefer for coding," said Federighi. "Maybe Google Gemini in the future. I mean, nothing to announce right now, but that's our direction."
https://www.macrumors.com/2024/06/11/apple-add-more-ai-model...

I suppose they will do the app-store financial model. They take 30% cut.

Some possible vendors: Google Gemini, Anthroic Claude, Mixtral, and other Chinese vendors in China market.


Why even list Chinese vendors? Those would never happen in a western market.


> Why even list Chinese vendors? Those would never happen in a western market.

Because the Western vendors are banned in China, and Apple sells a lot of iPhones in China.

And even in a Western market, you might have Chinese immigrants choosing the Chinese vendor. That's probably not enough to justify the integration in and of itself, but if you already have to do it for the Chinese market, why not offer it in the West too?


Why would a Chinese vendor not be able to offer AI in Western makrkets. Qwen is pretty good in English too.


> Why would a Chinese vendor not be able to offer AI in Western makrkets. Qwen is pretty good in English too.

Who says they couldn't? I was talking about the reverse not being allowed.


For sure but I am talking about this initial release which is in English.


iPhones sell in Chinese markets. And more china friendly countries will likely get access.


Right but this initial release is in English.


GoldmanSachs regrets making a deal with Apple. Hopefully, OpenAI's is different. https://thehill.com/business/4332380-apple-to-end-goldman-sa...


Goldman has killed off almost all of their consumer facing deals though, not just their apple contract


This is tangential, but I have been wondering: is there anything to prevent Apple from reading both sides of the exchanges between the user and OpenAI, and training its own models based on that data?


Yeah, 70% of their entire announcement was around the privacy controls.


Google pays Apple for distribution, so it sounds like Apple said “you pay for compute and we’ll give you the distribution for free”


Depends. How would that "free distribution" of "free compute" translate into profit for the company with the compute-bill?

Only via conversion of users to paid OpenAI accounts?


At the bottom of the article, they allude to a future "AI App Store":

> Eventually, Apple aims to make money from AI by striking revenue-sharing agreements whereby it gets a cut from AI partners that monetize results in chatbots on Apple platforms, according to the people. The company believes that AI could chip away at the billions of dollars it gets from its Google search deal because users will favor chatbots and other tools over search engines. Apple will need to craft new arrangements that make up for the shortfall.


Good question.


Okay.

Still curious if Apple "at least" has to pay the cloud-compute for the "free" OpenAI services they use (with OpenAI just licensing them their product for free) or if Apple really gets free AI-features AND 30% RevShare from handling sales of Premium OpenAI accounts...

I can't imagine that the profit of sold Premium subscriptions for OpenAI is sufficient to pay for the infrastructure hundreds of million iPhone users will consume using the free account.

Moreover, with Apple obviously executing their usual playbook, being the gatekeeper and total owner of all statistics, then slowly diverting traffic to their own products and cutting out the supplier...


Sam has gotten OpenAI well capitalized, and is playing a bit of a ponzi game. The big moves he has made are almost certainly not sustainable, and he's betting the farm that OpenAI can snowball into a monopoly position, bring costs way down and take over the world before investors start giving him the cold shoulder. OpenAI is far ahead of pretty much everyone but Meta in the race, but in the long run I think Mark and Yann can shut them down if they keep releasing free models.


That’s not gonna work. The Chinese pricing is already 1/20th of oai. Not as good sure but that very much limits scope for a pure cost play. You can’t win that against state backed entities


https://apnews.com/article/china-chatbot-xi-jinping-thought-...

What will the Chinese ai be able to discuss?


Thing is for 99% of usage cases this makes zero difference.

Not saying it’s right but it’s largely irrelevant. And it certainly isn’t a moat for oai


It may be a moat if no one can figure out how to censor an ai for china without a lobotomy.


The Great wall of China is as good as OAI?


None of this makes any sense.

a) Microsoft pays for compute. OpenAI never intended to run their own cloud.

b) Apple's 15%/30% is a "cost of channel" for developers. It is the fee they pay to get free users delivered to their app. And the decision to do this is purely a business one that can be changed at will and does not apply at all to this situation.

c) Calling Apple a gatekeeper for implementing additional features to their OS is odd to the say the least. They have made it clear during the keynote/WWDC presentations that they plan to add additional providers than OpenAI.


> a) Microsoft pays for compute. OpenAI never intended to run their own cloud.

No, Microsoft INVESTED in OpenAI and in exchange became OpenAI's exclusive cloud provider. That doesn't mean they pay for the compute of all customers.

> b) Apple's 15%/30% is a "cost of channel" for developers. It is the fee they pay to get free users delivered to their app. And the decision to do this is purely a business one that can be changed at will and does not apply at all to this situation.

Not sure what you meant to say here. Purchasing of OpenAI "premium" would be handled via Apple's payment platform, for which Apple will likely take a cut. Regardless, OpenAI's gamble would be to onboard ~100M iPhone users under a "free" tier in a single rollout step, in hopes that the conversion-rate to an OpenAI premium will be high enough to offset the (infrastructure!) cost of serving all those users for free

> c) Calling Apple a gatekeeper for implementing additional features to their OS is odd to the say the least. They have made it clear during the keynote/WWDC presentations that they plan to add additional providers than OpenAI.

Apple is the gatekeeper because they are in control of the decision to offload AI-tasks to a 3rd party service or do them "in-house" (on-device/Apple-cloud), This doesn't change regardless whether they stated this upfront at the keynote/WWDC or not.

Because of this structure, Apple is are aware of every single AI-task that is to be done and will use this information to influence their in-house roadmap (a natural decision, because on-device is better than cloud, and Apple-cloud is better because <insert tech of Apple cloud here>).

At some point in the future, the user will be able to select WHICH 3rd party he wants to use, but so far I don't see any indication that Apple considers themselves as a 3rd party.

And even if they would, they hold more information than all other providers because they FIRST decide whether a task can be handled on-device or not.


Do they actually hold more information, though? If it’s handled on-device, Apple never knows about it. If it’s sent to something other than ChatGPT, Apple can’t even read it. This seems like a pretty level field for anybody who wants to step in.


That's the misleading part of all of Apple's statements about privacy. Apple only ever talks about your "personal data", they let the audience conclude what that means.

A picture is personal data. Information about the content of that picture anonymized in a way that the user/subject cannot be identified, is not personal data anymore.

A profile generated from all your usage-habits combined is not "personal data" anymore.

Not a popular statement, but I believe the main reason for Apple pushing on-device ML-models is to extract non-personal information from its devices without the need for the "personal information" to be seen by Apple. There's even a paper on that [1]

Compute and storage is paid by the user, only the extracted data is delivered to Apple.

Beyond that, Apple's entire effort on privacy conveniently ensures that only they know everything about their users, and ensure that the customers don't (accidentally) tell someone else something about themselves.

[1] https://machinelearning.apple.com/research/learning-with-pri...


Ok so let’s play it out. I look at a picture of a cat, and Apple receives a completely anonymized log saying someone somewhere looked at a picture of a cat. This log has no information about me and cannot be tied back to me. Am I supposed to be concerned this is an affront to my privacy?

People want big data tech, most people think this is fine and not a privacy invasion. Apple’s approach to privacy is leagues better than e.g. Meta or Google. If you want no record, no accounts, no logs for anything ever, don’t buy a smartphone.


I wonder how the EU will react to this, since they might view it as proof of an Apple monopoly who can dictate terms & pricing.




Guidelines | FAQ | Lists | API | Security | Legal | Apply to YC | Contact

Search: