It is far easier to work your way into programming via spreadsheets than via sql.

One day you are writing ‘sum(a2:a201)’ the next you do some conditional formatting and so the complexity builds up very slowly with your needs.

With sql, day one:

‘SELECT SUM(Column) AS Total FROM Table;‘

Way more complicated. Way more powerful too, but most people don’t need the power until much later.

And you have to work in the console which is an unfamiliar ui for many.

It’s not impossible, but very high overhead in comparison.

Google Sheets has the =QUERY() function which does some very limited SQL.

That's not true, you can use Airtable to get the ease of use of a spreadsheet with the robustness of a database.

And now you have two problems. It’s not just SQL that you have to learn, but airtable. Which probably isn’t installed anywhere.

Not true. You can't use SQL in Airtable even if you want to, it just doesn't support it. Also, Airtable is SaaS, you can't install it.

s/install/somehow obtain access/

Doesn’t really change the point.

As of this writing, there are twenty-two comments on this thread about airtable. All but four are either you or responding to you bringing it up.

I think it’s fair to say that whatever its advantages may be, it is relatively unknown, and therefore a higher-overhead entree into programming than straight up spreadsheets.

Just learning about it or finding fit for purpose takes more time than diving into a spreadsheet. And as always the argument is not that spreadsheets are more powerful or better, but that they are much easier and more incremental to learn and start with.

You are absolutely right and it makes sense to start with a spreadsheet. As I said elsewhere, you have to reach a pain threshold in order to look for alternatives to Excel. And how soon you reach the pain threshold depends on how big your data is and how many users are trying to modify the same data at the same time.

Spreadsheet formulas have a very simple grammar: expression = reference | exp1 op exp2 | function(exp1, ..., expN)

That's it. It's the math notation from high school, plus cell references, which can be inserted by clicking a cell.

SQL and to an extent R were both created under the assumption that most people were not inclined to learn to program the computer. They could be expected to speak English and understand relational algebra, but they couldn't be expected to learn an imperative programming language. The existence of SQL stands as proof that at least some people 50 years ago thought there were multiple classes of user.

nothing makes it impossible, but they already have Excel installed on their computer and they learned how to use it. Depending on where they work they may not be able to install Python or R or a database.

Telling everyone to learn Python to solve all of their problems is not a legitimate or realistic suggestion or solution.

Why? We expect huge swaths of non-programmers to learn R to work with data. Seems like it just depends on the field. If Excel was an integrated Python environment (or VBA or whatever pick your language) then I bet users would have learned it all the same. Twenty years later I bet HN would be full of complaints about how people have a hard time transitioning to "real" Python because they learned the Excel flavor.

> We expect huge swaths of non-programmers to learn R to work with data.

I’ve worked in academics and industry around biologists, chemists, physicists, statisticians, bioinformaticians, and all varieties of engineers.

I’ve never seen “huge swaths” of anyone expected to learn R for anything outside of a few niche areas in statistics and bioinformatics.

What people are expected to know is how to use a spreadsheet. What people are often given is Microsoft Excel, and essentially nothing else. A lot of companies wouldn’t dream of letting random employees install or use R or Python.

It’s not ideal. But some battles can’t be won and aren’t worth fighting. Which is why people use Excel for so many things.

Do we?

I never seen R being used, when Excel doesn't work out, it is something like Tableau instead.

Most people who have access to a spreadsheet don't have access to a compiler or interpreter, or the desire or time to learn them if they do. Most people learn what they need to do their jobs, and then go home and forget about it until the next day.

Because they don't know it's programming. Seriously. I dated a woman for five years who was an accountant and a spreadsheet wizard. I told her that doing what she did with Excel, she was just as much a programmer as me, and she flat-out refused to believe that she had the mental capabilities required to be a programmer.

Years after we broke up, a new company she joined required her to take a VBA training course, and she texted me and told me I was right, VBA was easy and her biggest challenge was being patient while the other students struggled.

Discoverability is a big one. People really underestimate the value of having a menu, an actual fucking menu, listing all the functions you can use. Typing and getting autocomplete is a poor substitute, and you don't get even that in SQL, Python, or R by default - there are products that can provide that for you, but only after an expert has set them up.