I actually blame Johnny Ive for this clusterf*ck. Ive famously pursued a crusade for thinness. It's said that design is the art of compromise. Well, Ive took a no compromises approach to thinness and it showed.
Look no further than the 12" Macbook. One port (also needed for power), lower power CPU and (I believe?) the start of the dreaded butterfly keyboard. IIRC the butterfly keyboard's raison d'etre was to shave half a millimeter off the thickness of a Macbook. That's... it. Oh and that same crusade is probably a big part of why we lost the MagSafe adapter.
Compare the 12" Macbook to the (2010 and onwards) Macbook Air. A good compromise of thinness, power, ports and price point. For years, many (including myself) just wanted an upgrade to the Macbook Air with a retina display (and more modern ports). But we didn't, we got the "no compromises" Macbook instead.. until that was (thankfully) killed and the macbook Air came back.
And sure Ive designed the 2008 Macbook Air and he deserves credit for his design but... he clearly went off the deep end at some point after that.
The M1 Air even got rid of the stupid touch bar (thank God).
I don't believe the Air got rid of the Touch Bar -- it never had it. It was only on the Pro. What's so "Pro" about replacing the useful function keys (including the escape key) with a bar that does nothing but pick emojis is beyond me.
I strongly dislike the Touch Bar. I'm typing this on a 2019 MacBook Pro whose Touch Bar died yesterday, leaving me with no escape key, no volume buttons, no keyboard brightness buttons, and no play/pause button -- leaving me to do all of those in software -- including escape.
I never found a single useful purpose for the Touch Bar's main mode, so from about two weeks after I bought it, it's been set to simply show function keys ("expanded control strip"). This means I have function keys that accidentally activate when I'm trying to type numbers, that timeout and disappear to save battery, that can't be 'hovered' (touching without pressing) and that have no tactile feedback, slowing you down by forcing you to look away from the screen. And now - I've lost the entire row.
The touchbar as a more complex, expensive and easy to break part is such a poor design choice. Though so is the rest of the butterfly keyboard. It shouldn’t cost so much to replace such a simple part that is directly used everyday.
This is also why I dread having to get a new car with all the fancy electronics, they might be cool and useful now but apart from touchscreens being inferior to handle without looking on them (something I prefer to avoid while driving), that’s one thing that will both break and in general be worse than my phone, probably already when it comes out and by the next generation at the latest. (Quite ironically Bluetooth as the interface to my car was the first thing that broke and would cost EUR 900 to replace, which makes me happy I didn’t take the navigation)
I wish I could just pay a premium for longer lasting design. It also shows how silly it is when companies say they want to be net zero on emissions, then produce something that could easily work well for almost a decade were it not for some ridiculously expensive part breaking.
Just yesterday I finally found out why Word on the Mac kept selecting text while I was typing! After weeks of thinking the touchpad was ultra sensitive, I figured out that my finger hovers over F8 when I type the letter 'y'. F8 activates Extend Mode in Word, so my typing got captured to expand my selection to the next occurrence of each letter. I never felt myself touch the key at all.
That brings back memories! I kept accidentally playing/pausing music with this stupid Touch Bar. I worked around the problem by removing most buttons and keeping the right side of the Touch Bar empty.
The physical keyboard eventually became totally unusable so I now use an external keyboard 100% of the time, which solves the problem once and for all. Thanks Apple!
That's what I've done, but I hate having to adjust my typing habit. It's annoying enough that thanks to the touch bar I'm now incapable of typing escape on any other computer (because I'm in the habit of merely touching escape, not pushing it), now I have to adjust again and I'm going to be in the habit of pushing caps lock.
GNU Readline has destroyed my ability to work on non-readline editors. It's worse when I am using a machine where caps lock means caps lock. I have it bound to control (on hold) and escape (on tap). When I typo on a different machine and reflexively type ^A^K to kill the line, it comes out as capital "AK" instead. Repeat multiple times.
I had to break this habit as well, and also as a result of the touchbar. I empathize with this struggle, it took me a couple of weeks to get used to capslock escape, but it was worth it.
Believe me, you'll love using Caps Lock instead of ESC very soon. I switched the two using Karabiner (for mac) and I wonder how I used computers all those years before that. If you use vim (or vimium on Firefox), you'll absolutely like this change.
You can switch it in keyboard preferences under “modifier keys” now, no need for Karibiner any more. Can’t remember when this was changed but it was a few years back
I feel like that’s where the control key needs to be, I use that way more than escape, especially in combination with other keys and so it’s best when I can reach it easily.
Indeed I noticed the 2018 Macbook Pro became a much more useful machine for work and I was a lot more productive once I started using it clamshell-mode only with external keyboard/mouse/monitors.
The new 2019 MBP has a physical escape key. The touch bar is fantastic for my needs. I love being able to adjust applications with a touch panel slider. I do audio/video work from time to time.
I recently had the choice between a macbook pro and a dell xps. Saw the dell xps had HDMI, USB-C _and_ USB-A and was sold. Its nice to be able to bring my laptop in to a meeting room and just be able to plug in the hdmi cable without needing an adapter. Its also really nice to be able to use all my usb c accessories but without having to go usb C only.
And its not noticeably thicker than the macbook either. I can understand the pursuit of thinness or at least weight reduction in mobile devices. If the iPad was any heavier, you wouldn't be able to use it while standing. But on a laptop there is a lot more room for weight and thickness. As log as its comfortable to carry, that's good enough.
I use to have the same thought process as you: instantly sold on devices with native hdmi, usb a & usb c. By that metric xps beats macbook.
Recently I tried to convert to a windows laptop from my 16 inch mbp. Upon switching I was constantly annoyed by the fan noise & using my pinkie to press the 'control' key opposed to macbook thumb on 'command' key.
The point is, I realized native port selection was not a metric to consider when purchasing a laptop. I am fine bringing an adapter to the meeting room.
I guess it comes down to what you value. I am just trying to play 'devil's advocate' with my anecdotal experience compared to your experience.
I found the fan noise to be horrific on the 13in i5 macbook I was using. The thing was overheating constantly and since I use linux and windows at home, having the cmd key different only while working was a huge annoyance for me. On my dell xps 15 I almost never hear the fans at all and there is usually only a quick burst of fan noise when running a webpack compile or something compared to non stop 80% fans on the mbp.
There are far more things that made the dell xps a better choice and ports was just one of them but still a very important one. USB-C adapters are pretty cheap but USB-C hubs are $100+ and have been a constant source of frustration when they keep failing unless you buy the most expensive ones.
The M1's are dead silent, cold to the touch under all circumstances and dramatically faster. That was Intel, as it turns out, so if that was a big decision driver, I'd take another look!
I recently upgraded/switched my dev machine from a desktop (Intel NUC Hades Canyon) to a Lenovo Legion 5-15 ARH "gaming" laptop with 32GB, 2xM.2 and Ryzen 4800H (more mobile, more pandemic friendly).
It's a big laptop by XPS13 standards sure, but one that's appropriately cooled. I hadn't been aware, up to that point, how much the fans bothered me. This thing is quick but at the same time real quiet. After some time I turned the NUC on for some reason, the funs launched into overdrive and I suddenly got annoyed.
Use Karabiner Elements on macOS to switch the command key to what you want. And actually, I'm pretty sure it's possible in the built-in macOS settings, but I've always used that app for complex programmatic mappings.
Aren't all good hubs quite costly though? I just use a shitty little USB-C adapter + usb cable, and my monitor acts as the hub. I agree about the fan noise.
The thing with "windows" laptops is that you can install and run Linux seamlessly out of the box, even distros that Mimic the look of OSX, and remap the keys to your hearts content.
> even distros that Mimic the look of OSX, and remap the keys to your hearts content
Sadly, they mimic the macOS UI very poorly, and it remains not-possible in Linux to universally remap keyboard shortcuts to match macOS built-in sanity.
You should really take a look at https://ubuntubudgie.org.. it does not mimic the UI poorly at all.. the welcome app easily gets you to a dark mojave looking theme and then you can change the layout to cupertino for the global menu. Also open up budgie-settings to set the overall system theme to dark and that is literally all you have to do..
Also use waterfox instead of firefox if you want the browser to give you a proper global menu, or use chrome.
What people in the OSS land don't seem to understand is that the button shapes and control colors are not the killer feature of MacOS.
I can get a "looks like OSX" theme for KDE easily, but KDE will still be weirdly unstable, and have tons of impedance mismatch between it's components. You can't make a Ferrari out of a Ford by painting it the right shade of red.
I dunno if you have never used modern linux, but the current state of it is that you can install Pop OS on a laptop and hand it to your parents and they will figure out how to use it, without ever touching the terminal.
I also don't understand how people say Macs are stable. I get the spinny thing that locks up the entire system about once a week.
The XPS line in particular has had Developer Editions with pre-installed Ubuntu, and IIUC significant effort by Dell to provide good Linux drivers, for years.
Yeah, also USB-C is pretty obviously the future: having a single connector for all my external devices makes it hard to go back to packing multiple connectors. And, instead of dongle adapters, I just buy cables with the appropriate connector pair: e.g. HDMI/USB-C for my TV
My XPS 9550 had two batteries swell and the 2nd time it broke my upper case and trackpad.
I replaced the case, trackpad, and keyboard, but Dell won't sell me a battery and their batteries have DRM so you can't use a 3rd party unit.
My top of the line, i7, 32gb ram, 2gb gpu, 1tb nvme drive laptop is now no better than a paperweight. When plugged into shore power you can't get max CPU or GPU power and it's an annoying mess to deal with so it's just sitting.
I now own an X1 Carbon 7th gen and a 2020 i5 MBP and love them both. I'm traveling more than ever (bought a camper van to get out of the city center) and they are typically more abused than the XPS ever was. No problems at all. Shit, my 8 and 10 year old MBPs are still running after giving them away to friends in need.
I have a thin Anker dongle that has type a ports, ethernet, hdmi, and type c and a couple cheap backups in various bags. It's a small price to pay and all of our devices save the iPhone are type C now so I am slowing moving to one cord for everything.
Anyway...I'll never buy another Dell for the rest of my life. End rant
Yes. I've tried flashing older BIOS versions. Multiple new chargers. I've tried 5 different batteries from Amazon and eBay. 2 have worked for a hot minute before failing to be recognized. I've popped in the swollen battery to test to make sure something else wasn't working and the swollen battery stays recognized.
Reading Reddit/talking to others in similar positions it's hit or miss whether the specific machine will work. I can't find a pattern with BIOS version, model, dates, etc. To date I've probably spent 30 hours troubleshooting and I've given up :(
This is a horror story and its bigger than just dell. Replacing a macbook battery is virtually impossible as well. IMO this is a problem that needs government action. The right to repair laws should include that ALL consumer electronics which use a battery have a serviceable battery and that parts be sold for x years.
I understand some people do need all these ports, but in my experience (and opinion) an XPS is worse in every other metric.
The trackpad is terrible, the sound is terrible, the screen is worse, the webcam is not as good. I cannot use windows so I have to use Linux, which brings a good bunch of its problems such as external screen with different resolutions, having to setup scaling for many applications individually, and always being the last guy to join meetings because every day I have a different problems switching to my usb headset, etc. I ended up going back to a macbook pro. The XPS hardware might look as good in the specs, but it won't last for more than 2 years, it crackles everywhere and the paint (in the trackpad, for example) wears off pretty easily if you use it every day.
So, yes, I'd love macbooks to have more ports, but by no metric that problem alone would lead me to prefer it over an XPS.
I have XPS's and MacBooks in my house. For the record, none of the XPS's have HDMI or USBA. They have for several years. That's a shame. But in addition, none of the other things you mentioned are worse on the XPS.
I bought one cause I prefer Linux, my wife got one because it was 1k$ cheaper than the comparable MacBook. She's a designer and the screen is 100% Adobe RGB coverage.
The XPS and MacBook, from a hardware perspective, are basically equivalent. Its a shame they both took the ports out.
> I recently had the choice between a macbook pro and a dell xps
Which XPS? My XPS 13 9300 has just 2 USB-C ports and a micro-SD slot (I don't mind carrying a small USB-C to everything adapter TBH, you can even have ethernet and VGA with that)
Work gave me an XSP And I gave it back. One of the worst laptops. They used to be really good but the thing runs so hot and loud compared to my Lenovo. And still nothing beats Lenovo keyboard.
You can probably use the Ive/Jobs combination to describe evolution. Ive was the mutation source, Jobs was the selection filter. What makes evolution work is selection. Without selection you get crap. Mutation is just the noise you need to have something to apply (recombination and) selection to.
It is hard to say how much post-Jobs was really Ive. But it was clear that Apple got really lost. And it does suggest that Ive was rather mediocre all along. After all, he sinned against one of the most basic principles when you design something: it has to deserve to exist.
In the latter half of the 2010s it got really bad and dare I say: Apple didn't do very well in designing laptops. They really lost touch with reality.
I find this an uncharitable view point. All sorts of creative work goes through a filter. Writers have editors, musicians have producers, actors have directors, programmers have other programmers. And when the filter fails (or dies), the result is bad.
YMMV. My 12" retina MacBook was perhaps my favorite machine I've owned. I have a M1 Air now, I like it as well. There are some pros and cons to both. I do still miss the smaller form factor.
I agree — the 12" is still Apple's best ever form factor. I even considered buying another one as the line was winding down. (Though was glad I didn't after the M1 came out.)
But to be fair, the comment you're replying to is talking specifically about the 12" MacBook's keyboard, which is indeed awful. I'm typing on one right now, and even after years on the thing, it's a perpetual reminder of how they're slower to type on, and kind of make your fingers hurt.
Remove the butterfly keyboard, add a second port, and the 12" MacBook gets unequivocally better.
Surprisingly enough I quite like the keyboard. Its reliability is shit (though better in the 2017 model - haven't had to replace mine yet) but the feeling of it is fine; it took some time to get used to but after that I don't mind it at all!
I didn't mind the keyboard so much. I'll admit that when I switch back to that machine that I don't like it as much as on the MBA, but it was fine. Granted, I've always had weird keyboard preferences in terms of tactile feel, travel distance, and the like.
Once in a while I'd wind up with the sticky keys, but was lucky enough to avoid anything permanent.
Same here. I've got the M1 Air and while it's good, it's definitely bigger and heavier than the 12-inch, which is a bit of an inconvenience once you're used to the former.
It's a sad coincidence they decided to discontinue it before their M1 CPU was ready because the M1 would've been right at home in the power & thermal envelope of the 12-inch Macbook.
I hope there will be a 12-inch Macbook successor at some point.
The 13 inch Air is too big. But I suspect we're going to see chassis redesigns for everything given the new thermal windows, so maybe that will be the opportunity.
Mine too! I loved how incredibly light it was. I never had to think twice about taking it somewhere with me. I rarely used the port for anything other than charging, so it wasn’t too much of a hassle. Definitely disliked the keyboard though (I had the first generation).
I kept mine instead of trading it in for the post-pandemic era. Similar to you, I could throw it in a bag and not even notice it was there. It was perfect for carrying around, traveling, etc.
I have exactly the same feeling about the form factor but even with the maxxed-out spec (2017 with i7 and 16GB of RAM) it feels underpowered even when doing fairly basic tasks. And though I'm sure it's mostly psychological, the keyboard feels delicate.
The M1 Air is a bit bigger, but that two centimetres of width does go to good use with a bigger screen (with more pixels), a bigger trackpad, and a bigger battery.
I have 2017 MacBook retina, and... it is just way too slow. Can open 2 or 3 electron apps at the same time at max. Trying to run 3 electron apps and an IDE, it becomes unusable.
And nowadays everything is an electron app. So... I am considering updating.
I love the form factor though and I don’t really care about the ports or the keyboard. (it broke once, I fixed it)
I mostly agree with you, although I'd make one pedantic argument:
The 12" MacBook made a great set of compromises (other than keyboard reliability) for the goal it intended to achieve. I had one for several years and loved it.
The mistake was taking the compromises from the 12" and applying them to the rest of the lineup, where they made no sense at all.
Is it really his fault though? Apple from the beginning pushed the boundaries multiples faster than any other company by asking the engineers to create the impossible, and more often than not they delivered. The butterfly keyboard did work, it just had reliability issues (I loved typing on the butterfly as long as it worked). The problem was that they tried to never take the complaints seriously in the open while secretly trying to fix the design with bandaid after bandaid before finally giving up. That’s the problem, owning up to mistakes (remember the audacity with which Jobs spoke about antenna gate asking the people to hold the phone correct) not the excessive push towards thinness. We reap the benefits of the dogged pursuit by the crazies in the company which just means once in a while they also screw up something.
I have a few custom keys, one which runs a script that finds my airpods, connects, turns on eq (boom), starts spotify, sets volume my normal level, hits play.
I do hate it when the touchbar crashes and requires a reboot, but I've gotten so much milage out of my script keys that I'd rather keep it.
Touchbar is useless without BetterTouchTool for me.
I have buttons to open notes files, open my jira with tap, a strip with scrollable weather, screenshot buttons, automated settings control (like the security screen) and finger gestures.
Swipe left and right with 2 fingers for volume control, 3 for brightness, 4 for keyboard backlight. It feels so smooth and natural to change the volume that way.
It can do a ton though. best 7 bucks I've spent, and makes me want a touchbar on all my laptops from now own, surprisingly.
I like this general idea and indeed do similar things, but I’d personally much rather use regular keyboard shortcuts powered by something like Alfred than rely on the Touch Bar
ive is a one trick pony w/ myopic perspective on design - One that is purely focusing on useless aesthetics. Hope apple products going fwd will have superior hardware design that balances usability w/ style.
complain as much as you like, and you may be mostly correct. But you overlooked one absolutely brilliant piece of Apple technology: the ipod nano 7. (insert hysterical laughter). Make fun if you want, it's obsolete, only 16gb, poor battery, old bluetooth etc. You are right, but i challenge anyone to show me anything comparable, with such a good touchscreen, that is slim enough that you don't feel it in your pocket. Every mm matters, and the nano 7 has no parallel afaik. We will look back in 20 and speak with hushed awe about how well packaged the nano 7. You rail against ive's crusade, but it isn't all bad news.
My wife liked it so much we bought a couple of new ones when the product was retired just to make sure we'll have at least one working for decades to come. Still using one every day.
I fail to see any point in the Shuffle. Way too much money for something without a screen. The 7 otoh could have had better specs, but as far as the screen, casing, buttons etc are concerned, it is perfection itself. When i hold it i am aware that it is the most complete product in it's class. For all time. Period. And also, the Shuffle has a clip i think. That pointless, dumb thing that ruined the 6. I doubt ive had much to say about that clip.
Both my work macbook pro and my personal macbook air have keyboard issues. My personal skips or double hits the letter “e”, which has been a nightmare because I’ve been writing a book the whole time. My work laptop is worse, the command key doesn’t work most of the time. Sometimes I try to copy something, I’ll hit command-c and instead it’ll overwrite my selection with “c”. So I try to undo and hit command-z, so it’ll write “cz”, I hit a number of time which gets me “czzzzzz” (which is funny if I’m on VC and sharing my screen). Then the undo works, I try to copy again, and I hit the same issue again. Im convinced that my mental health has taken a toll in parts due to this. I’m also convinced I have many typos in my book because of this as well.
When the double letters started happening for me, I became legitimately concerned about my own sanity. It didn't occur to me that the keyboard may be faulty since I type quite fast, couldn't reproduce the problem in slow motion, and didn't think Apple products were capable of such fundamental flaws.
I ended up paying Apple more money for an external keyboard and trackpad when the Apple store employee told me that it would take me weeks to get my keyboard fixed. I used to love Apple products, but after my struggle with this issue I absolutely despise them.
Initially, I was skeptical of all the reports about how frequently the issue was happening, and I was starting to believe that it was just hysterics by the anti-Apple crowd. But it was eventually just a matter of time.
First my personal laptop had issues, and I was thankfully able to take advantage of the free keyboard replacement. Then my work laptop began experiencing the same issue, and it's gotten so bad that I had to connect an external keyboard in order to be able to login because I have no way to see which characters are getting screwed up as I type my password.
I keep meaning to take it to the Apple store, but the latest estimates are 5 to 7 days to replace the keyboard and I haven't yet had the opportunity to be without my work machine for that long.
Before I brought my Macbook Air in for repairs, I did have some success with the Unshakey application [1]. Sadly, about 8 months after getting that fixed my entire display went due to the supposed "Flexgate" issue.
I just did an online chat with Apple to get my keyboard replaced due to similar issues. It’s out of warranty but they said they’ll do it for free for up to four years after the date of retail sale...I happened to be exactly, to the day, four years from when I bought it! Make sure you get it done before then!
I've been using my macbook every day, all day, for two years. How hard are you hitting the keys? Or were you trying to pop the keys off? Because that will break them easily.
Look the butterfly macbook keyboards were defective, end of story. It's not a matter of someone being too harsh on them, they were extremely failure prone compared to other keyboards. Sometimes canned air worked, plenty of other times it wouldn't do anything. Even users who paid $700 to get Apple to repair their screw up and immediately put a silicone keyboard cover over the replacement still had keyboard failure after a year. Clearly they called it a butterfly keyboard because that's how light you have to touch it to keep it from failing. This isn't heavy handed users, this is idiotic design decisions.
Apple put out one of the least reliable keyboards in any laptop that was simultaneously the most expensive to repair. It took them 3 years of gouging customers with obscenely expensive repairs before they were willing to actually admit to the defective design. There's plenty of users on HN alone who suffered from it when it broke right after the warranty ended. If you didn't decide to purchase AppleCare, you got to pay Apple hundreds of dollars to fix their own design defect on a relatively new machine while Apple staff pretended to be completely unaware that this was a common problem.
I'm glad their canned air trick worked for you, many others weren't so lucky. Even today, best case scenario if your keyboard is far gone enough to need replacement instead of canned air, it gets replaced with a new keyboard that's just as defective as the original.
I noticed that on the 12” macbook when it started to get warm. If the keyboard was cool it never happened. But once it was under load keys started getting all janky.
If I'm coding with an external screen connected (always hot, regardless of activity), and doing anything that requires the CPU (that never fails to bring the temperature tup massively and the fans to come on all the way up) I will make too many mistakes. Missing letters, things I need to press harder or for longer, etc. It's a massive pain.
Keyboards shouldn't fail as often as the butterfly keyboards did (and the fact that the most commonly used letters tended to fail first points rather to a wear issue than just breadcrumbs), but most of all, it shouldn't take more than $100 to exchange a failed keyboard. But with the "repair" costs charged for the laptops, they become a write-off basically as soon as they fail out of warranty.
Apple extended no-questions-asked replacement for butterfly keyboards for something like four years after sale.
Don't recall if they refunded replacements before they put that policy in place though.
Mostly mentioning this in case someone is sitting on an out-of-warranty MacBook with a failed keyboard.
My left command key quitting on one of those MBPs brought me right up to the edge of bailing on the whole ecosystem; switching back to scissors for the 16" MBP kept me in the garden, for now.
4 years seems like a bit of an insult in this scenario. These laptops are very expensive bought new and this is a defect; you would think they would repair them for life or at least as long as the life of the laptop.
I've been using the same MBR laptop since 2013 for personal use and haven't found any reason to switch. I would be pretty mad if I owned one of these and had to get it fixed, or wanted to resell it and had a lower resell value because of the keyboard.
It also feels worse because they continued manufacturing them for years after they knew there was a problem. 4 years smells similar to the planned obsolescence scandal in iPhones, as it implies that the lifetime of one of these is 4 years which is just not the case in my experience. They are hoping people will say "my laptop needs a new battery and a new keyboard, might as well drop another 2 grand for a new one" instead of keeping their perfectly good laptop.
The most plausible theory for why they stuck with the butterfly board that long, is that Jony Ive didn't leave the company until 2019.
Word is, it was his baby, and he was convinced that if they just kept tweaking it, they would get it right eventually.
The keyboard I'm typing on feels identical to every other MacBook keyboard I've owned, going back to the titanium PowerBook G4. I expect it will prove comparably durable: never had a key skip or double-press on any of them, and I go hard on my equipment.
I actually liked the crispness of the butterfly keys, but absolute reliability is a hard requirement and they just weren't.
> Apple extended no-questions-asked replacement for butterfly keyboards for something like four years after sale.
That's only a 1-year extension for people who bought AppleCare. And after you drop out of the warranty period, your machine is basically one speck of dust away from being useless.
A fairer policy would be to give AppleCare customers longer for no-cost fixes, and to offer everyone a reasonably-priced repair for the life of the machine (I was told it would be something north of $700 after the warranty period).
4 years is not very much when you consider the laptop a total loss, if the keyboard fails after that time. And we don't know how many laptops already have been trashed when their keyboard failed before this extended repair program was started. This is the problem with any device which cannot be repaired for a reasonable sum in the case of a defect.
Can you get a battery replacement for that price, even if the battery is still fine?
And if you can, why is a keyboard replacement so much more expensive, especially as it is known to fail?
I'm one of the rare weirdos who really likes the feel of the butterfly keyboard. I love the snappy, tappy reaction. The new "magic" keyboards feel mushy in comparison.
BUT… my 2016 MBP is on its third keyboard, and seems ready for a fourth.
AND… for four years I've been wondering if my typing has been getting progressively worse worse; a couple weeks ago I picked up an M1 Air as a kind of stopgap while waiting for the M1 16".
LO AND BEHOLD: my typing accuracy got better overnight. That fraction of a millimeter between the keys makes a huge difference.
I love the butterfly keyboard. It was a disaster. RIP.
Another weirdo here I guess. I love the stability and the positive clickiness. I'm pretty picky with my keyboards otherwise preferring tactile mechanical switches. Surprised not see more love for butterflies here.
I haven't had those reliability issues, but 90% of the time work with an external keyboard and I clean my equipment more often than most.
I didn't get enough tactile feedback while touch typing. It felt hard to tell whether the "click" feeling I got was from the key clicking or just from my finger hitting the key and bouncing off.
Fwiw, I don't like any of the key systems that have a force threshold they just give up after. I had a Razer gaming keyboard that I didn't like for the same reason. It had good travel, but the keys don't move until you hit a certain force and then they totally cave and there's no resistance. They're also not really designed for typing though.
I'm on your side. I love the low travel and the clickiness. I don't like how easily it breaks, and I don't like the Touch Bar, but I actually really like typing on the butterfly keyboard itself (I'm typing this on one), I find I'm very fast and accurate and it feels quick and clean.
FWIW, I went from a 2014 Macbook Pro to a 2019 16 inch model (first one that went back to the "magic" keyboard) and I find the keys noticeably more snappy; I suppose my old rubber domes may have worn out, but the travel is definitely less, and its sharper.
I liked the infamous butterfly keyboard more. I could type much faster on it, and it felt more solid, but almost everyone I know had an issue with them.
I actually like the very tactile nature. I think it's a shame to have to return to the previous model, where key travel is longer, but the tactility is meh.
Like it or not I just wanted to buy a Mac that didn’t have a ticking time bomb of a repair. Thank god the M1 macs don’t have the keyboard. It’s the reason I haven’t bought a new Mac since 2013.
I completely understand that. Still, it's a shame not even the mechanical design wizards at Apple couldn't make it reliable.
I have a couple scissor keyboards (the pre-magic ones) and, alternating between the laptop and the desktop one just makes it clear how much the butterfly feels better.
Im pretty sure they did make it reliable, but the ship had sailed by then.
I haven’t heard of any trouble with the fourth gen (the last one before moving back to scissor-switches) at all.
It’s really unfortunate - a lot of people really liked the butterfly keyboard - but the reliability issues in earlier versions combined with the criticisms on key travel meant those voices just didn’t win out.
I agree, I don't like key travel. I guess I am in the minority of people, because my RSI symptoms are actually lessened by lowering my key travel and trigger force. How I differ though is that I really would prefer a more quiet key than the Butterfly style. It's hard to type quietly on the toilet or in a meeting.
Just trying to help, since I’ve been there! Your RSI symptoms might be correlated with but not caused by key travel / force.
I’ve found that the dominant cause of RSI is wrist pose (position + orientation), which is mostly influenced by keyboard height (relative to your body), and also to a lesser extent by key pose.
Using a split, rising-away keyboard at a position where elbows are bent 90ish degrees and the wrists are in a neutral position is a game-changer.
Lower key travel/trigger times change the orientation of your wrists, but not the position. So it might make things better, but no laptop keyboard will provide the optimal typing environment.
I totally agree with your points. I should have mentioned earlier that I reached my conclusions about key travel and force from comparing the Apple Magic Keyboard 2 with the Das Keyboard 4 Ultimate in similar angles in front of a Contour Rollermouse Pro 3.
The cherry mx brown switches in the Das Keyboard cause more pain than the proprietary scissor switches in the Magic Keyboard 2. Fatigue sets in quicker. I tried moving myself and the Contour Rollermouse up relative to the Das Keyboard keeping good ergonomics, but it still seems to have the same effect for me.
I am still shopping for a split keyboard, I definitely want to try it but I see it as a hail mary for reducing pain given that they typically use cherry switches.
I think this article [1] does a pretty good job. (#1 result when I Google for “optimal typing posture”). Only thing I’d disagree with is I prefer to have my horizontally aligned with the midpoint of my monitor, to ease pressure on the neck.
Another thing it mentions but doesn’t visualize is the effect of having a split keyboard. Without the split, your shoulders are in a strained position while typing. You can practice this with a “ghost” keyboard and paying attention to your shoulder muscles, it makes a big difference!
Its so subjective isn’t it? I really like the larger surface area of the BF keys, but I also quite like the loud clacks of the keyboard.
I came from Cherry MX blues back in the day and for whatever reason came to find the obnoxious nature of the super-clacks (which the BF keys also deliver in spades) oddly satisfying.
How do you type on the keyboard? I think butterfly keyboard (and scissor switch keyboards too) appeals more to people who gently tap the keys. High-rise keyboards appeal more to people who whack the keys from a distance.
I have a 2019 model with the fixed (hopefully) version of the keyboard that added the debris-protecting membrane. It hasn't failed me yet, knock wood. I really love how fast I can type on it and how light the keypresses need be. I'm less accurate but my increased typing speed more than makes up for the the slight loss in accuracy.
Some of my colleagues complain of muscle pain from the short key travel on these models. From sitting next to them in pre-Covid days I can only imagine that's due to how hard they used to pound their poor keyboards.
I dreaded moving to the chiclet keyboards and then I dreaded moving to the butterfly, but at least for me they both turned out to be pleasantly surprising upgrades.
I now have RSI after using my 2018 macbook pro. I remember after those came out, everybody's typing was way louder and distracting in meetings - that can't be healthy for your joints. It feels like typing on a block of wood.
100% agree. The butterfly switch MBP I have is by far the worst keyboard I have ever used. After a few hours of typing on that keyboard my fingers are sore from instant bottom out into what feels like a sheet of metal.
Am I the only one who thinks that no travel + tactile feedback actually sound like two highly desirable properties for a keyboard? Whenever I use someone else's butterfly keyboard I'm impressed and a bit jealous, but as I've never used one for long, I can't say whether it's really an improvement.
I'm favorable to keyboards with minimal key travel, and the MBP with its butterfly keys- initially- was amazing. The problem is that after just a few months of regular use some keys started double-activating, or some keys require extra force to activate. And due to the nature of the keys, they were difficult to clean free of regular dust/grime.
I think if it had a really crisp click and actually worked people would like it. I certainly would. The amount of travel is pretty irrelevant if you get solid feedback.
Yeah, the ultra-thin keyboard would have been fine for me if it stayed crisp and clicky for the lifespan of the laptop. It could just barely deliver a small fraction of that.
The butterfly keyboard implementation was just too fragile, for one. Keyboards need to be able to take a beating.
Except touch bars have no tactile feedback and can't feel the separate keys.
I like about very low travel time keyboards is that the keys have only two states - pressed or not pressed. With mechanical and other high rise keyboards you have these awkward transitions, where the key activates around halfway through the travel time. So you either stop before the activation point and miss the keystroke, or you overpress the key, bottom out and slow your typing rate dramatically.
Not sure if just me, but the Butterfly keyboard is the best keyboard I've ever used on a notebook. The thinness didn't matter to me, typing feel felt so much more stable and solid. I don't believe it was created due to a pursuit of thinness.
That said, I didn't have failures other than a couple of minor occurrences, twice I had to clean out my 2016 (with blown air), and never had any issues on my 2018.
Same here! I’m on a 2019 MBP, and absolutely _love_ the butterfly keyboard. I have also had no issues with it. Then again, I find those that do love smashing their fingers down on the keys whereas I lightly tap which I really really like. I am really not looking forward to using a non-butterfly keyboard when I eventually have to upgrade :(
Me too. I love butterfly keyboard. I like how crunchy it feels like typing. I wish they made external keyboards with butterfly mechanism because I'd love to have one for my PC.
Super anecdotal comment here, but my down arrow key on my Macbook Air M1 2020 was recently sticking. No spills. Removed it, found nothing, and tried to put it back, but now I've cracked the key. Off to the Apple Genius bar I go. I've had it for nearly 4 months now. Hopefully this is just a one off.
Not sure about the new ones, but the old butterfly key caps were really thin and brittle plastic. And unlike other laptops they were attached with hooks and clips, which makes it hard to remove the cap without snapping the flimsy hook. It's just cheaply made. Compared to something like my t480s, I've been pounding on it for a few years now and no issues whatsoever, I can spill a drink, it's full of crumbs and dust, but still going. I even dropped it, replaced the lcd in a local shop. Screw apple, I'm not going back, even the m1 is not tempting me. I love the ports, repairability and ruggedness too much to give it up.
I agree with you. I took it out carefully, and noted the pins, but it cracked from the edge in when I tried to put it back!
I still have so many old keyboards, and a Lenovo laptop and a 2013 Macbook Pro. None of them have ever had a "sticky" key or cracked. 4 months in is too quick to have keyboard problems.
So what does this class action mean in real terms? I have an impacted MacBook and it will run out of the repair date in a few months. Is that going to get extended? If not, am I going to get the massive loss in resale?
I am assuming it means the lawyers will make bank and I'll get a check for a hundred or so.
This is one of the few times someone has lied directly to my face, and I will always remember it.
The issue was plastered all over the internet with people even writing apps to solve the issue by disabling key-repeat etc.
I go into the store and say "my MacBook is doing the double key press thing, same issue everyone's talking about online", and the guy says to me "oh we are not aware of this". I should have done a Google search to show him all the posts in retrospect.
It was such blatant bullshit. They repaired my MacBook under warranty, but just useless lying to customers.
I will never forget getting my Butterfly MBP repaired (within the warranty), and the Apple employee telling me it would have been $600 but they were generously doing this for free, this time.
That's nice, but in my case on the 2016 model the key caps would literally lift off and stick to my fingers. I suspect the heat would weaken the keys, technology nowadays must be designed by people living in colder climates.
The screen is now also showing a black area at the bottom and then it comes back on after a few minutes. Total lemon, I swore not to buy an apple laptop again.
I'm not sure I fully understand the rationale behind this lawsuit. I hated butterfly keyboard the moment I tried it, which is why I stopped upgrading/buying MacBook Pro entirely. People who bought had all the chances to try and decide not to buy, or to even return after trying. They stuck to it.
What's the ground for the class action ? Did Apple make any misleading presentation ? Otherwise, this feels like suing simply because you don't like the product (when they had all the chances to not buy or return).
> People who bought had all the chances to try and decide not to buy, or to even return after trying
Random missed keystrokes long after the return period are the problem. Mine is 3 years old and I just had the keyboard[1] swapped out by Apple under the extended warranty. It was sometimes missing arrow key strokes for a while, but when it started missing spacebar, that was when I got it replaced. They only extended the warranty to 4 years so I figured now was my window.
Apple also claimed several times to have fixed the issue with this keyboard. I believe every year up until 2019 they made these claims. It was never the case. My 2019 MBP from work is in the initial "occasional dust-under-the-key" stage of failure.
[1] - Because the MBP is so unrepairable, they have to replace the battery when they swap the keyboard. So for anyone with one of these, get it replaced for an additional free battery refresh.
The problem isn't that it feels bad - that of course is personal preference and would not be grounds for a class action. The problem is that it breaks quickly, which is not something that you can find out by trying it out for 10 minutes in a shop.
> I'm not sure I fully understand the rationale behind this lawsuit.
The lawsuit itself is clear as to the rationale. [0]
> What's the ground for the class action ?
There are several.
> Did Apple make any misleading presentation ?
As alleged, yes, both about the product itself and what Apple would do if there was a problem (given that failing to uphold the explicit warranty in good faith is one of the claims.)
I hate butterfly keyboard and I think it's one of the worst mistakes Apple ever made, but I'm afraid I didn't find anything in the article that mentions what "consumer protection law" that Apple violated.
As far as I know, Apple followed through with their warranty. There's no safety issues with keyboard failures. Where/when does the company's liability end with their product ?
You have to follow the link title "filed in 2018" to get the full description of the lawsuit. It says:
> Apple is accused of, among other things, violating California's Unfair Competition Law and Consumer Legal Remedies Act, the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act, the Song-Beverly Consumer Warranty Act, and breach of express warranty.
I certainly don't know enough about the law to comment on whether they're actually in violation of anything there. But as a complete layperson the argument "Apple knowingly sold keyboards that broke unreasonably quickly, and took a weirdly long time to change that" is persuasive under some vague sense that products should be suitable for reasonable use.
> As far as I know, Apple followed through with their warranty
They are specifically accused, among other things, of generally denying warranty service in favor of known-bad self-help recommendations, and also, when accepting units for warranty service, knowingly doing “repairs” that were temporary fixes.
Look no further than the 12" Macbook. One port (also needed for power), lower power CPU and (I believe?) the start of the dreaded butterfly keyboard. IIRC the butterfly keyboard's raison d'etre was to shave half a millimeter off the thickness of a Macbook. That's... it. Oh and that same crusade is probably a big part of why we lost the MagSafe adapter.
Compare the 12" Macbook to the (2010 and onwards) Macbook Air. A good compromise of thinness, power, ports and price point. For years, many (including myself) just wanted an upgrade to the Macbook Air with a retina display (and more modern ports). But we didn't, we got the "no compromises" Macbook instead.. until that was (thankfully) killed and the macbook Air came back.
And sure Ive designed the 2008 Macbook Air and he deserves credit for his design but... he clearly went off the deep end at some point after that.
The M1 Air even got rid of the stupid touch bar (thank God).