Calling this war a genocide, removes all meaning from the word. If this war in which 14,000 enemy combatants have been killed out of 32,000 total casualties (and 2.1million population) then you could literally call any battle or war a genocide. Heck, by this measure, the cartels are genociding the US (>100k deaths annually from drug ODs). Cars are genociding everyone (>40k deaths in the US alone). Words have meaning and taking a word with an existing meaning and attempting to use that meaning for your own emotional argument doesn’t do you any good. It just makes people ignore you.
This is an off topic tangent that gets brought up way to often in these discussion.
We have a pretty clear definition under international law what constitutes a genocide. It has nothing to do with numbers or proportion but rather intent and conduct, for example the Bosnian genocide was ruled as such because of the killing of 8372 victims, while the Cambodian genocide failed to meet the criteria despite 2-3 million dead.
Many international organizations and governments—including the world highest court—has stated that it is plausible that Israel is committing a genocide.
This is not an emotional argument, but rather a legal argument made at the highest court as well as by experts in the field. If we want to be accurate with our words, we should indeed use the word genocide in this context.
And it’s plausible that a dark lightbulb is due to it being burnt out, but it’s not necessarily so. Perhaps the switch is off, or the breaker is thrown, or a mouse has chewed through the wires.
If we want to be accurate with our words, let’s not use claims that haven’t been proven outside of TikTok.
It will take years to prove the genocide under international law. In the meantime plausible genocide (or genocide for short) are the most accurate terms. It is the term international organizations and many government do indeed use, as do many media organizations. So should we.
The Cambodian genocide was never proven to be a genocide under international law. It was proven under a special national tribunal in Cambodia to be one. But it failed to meet the strict criteria under international law. We still call it a genocide, and we should do so. The crimes of the Khmer Rouge were that of genocide and should be described as such. The same goes for the crimes of Israel.
This is a beyond simplistic view of how any of this works. The reason Khmer Rouge wasn't ruled to have committed a genocide is purely political. It had nothing to do with their actual actions and everything to do with who supported them and those interests being defended.
Israel being accused of genocide is similarly a political ploy by those who hate Jews and the ruling of genocide is a foregone conclusion because it serves those who hate Jews (aka most of Europe, the ME, and Africa). You wishing for genocide doesn't make it so, instead of making baseless hate filled claims why not back them up with actual facts? Where's the intent? Where's the conduct? Promising to kill all of Hamas isn't genocide just like promising to kill all of the nazis wasn't genocide, just like promising to kill all of ISIS isn't genocide. If you take all the actual actions that Israel has taken as well as all the words spoken by the people actually in power, you don't have genocide, instead you have a war started by a genocidal death cult, and peace-loving people attempting to defend themselves while preserving as much life as possible, even as those very people make every attempt to kill more Jews.
The conduct Israel is employing in Gaza is indeed that of genocide. They are not purely targeting and killing active Hamas combatants, but their homes and families as well as infrastructure, schools, hospitals, residential neighborhoods etc. The Palestinian peoples living their lives in Gaza are the victims of this genocide and Hamas members are the collateral. The lives of Palestinians in Gaza has been made unbearable (criteria 2c of genocide convention).
You claim this isn’t backed by facts. But you are wrong. There has been a case filed at the world court with 85 pages of evidence. The world court has ruled this evidence as relevant and incriminating. Since the case was filed more evidence has been piling up, which we can see in various media outlets, so much so that the world court issued an addendum to their ruling when it became apparent that Israel was using starvation of the Palestinian people as a weapon of war, and plausibly as a means towards genocide.
Your claim that this is a political ploy be people who hate Jews is baseless and without merit. This is a desperate attempt of people actively trying prevent Palestinian people from being victims of genocide.
There is no such thing as a world court, please stop making things up. You continue to appeal to authority as if that proves everything. Nothing you've said in this entire discussion is based in reality. Not a word of it. Please consider simply actually looking at reality and not allowing false propaganda to sway your understanding.
Calling something genocide doesn't make it so. Calling Hamas collateral damage is further proof of your totally warped world view.
I really shouldn’t be engaging with this. Attacking me personally and calling me names is not the HN way.
However I’d like to clarify one thing. The World Court is used interchangeably with the International Court of Justice (ICJ). Googling “World Court” yields ICJ as the first result. Typing “World Court” into Wikipedia gives you the page for ICJ. In many languages (including my native tongue) this court is called the World Court.
I beg you to please show some curiosity, if you encounter a term you don’t know, it is easier to search the term (or ask) rather then to accuse the poster of idiocy.
Where did I call you a name? I attacked your view and argument. You clearly like to toss out baseless accusations, but that doesn't make them true.
Regardless of their name, they hold no authority and are an entirely political organization as I've said in other comments.
I'm not sure what I need to show curiosity about, I've been very open to any discussion here, but if all you continue to bring are baseless accusations of hate, without adding anything there isn't really any more curiosity to be had.
You accused me of making things up and being delusional (which is quite ableist name calling IMO) by saying things like: “Nothing you've said in this entire discussion is based in reality”, and “Please consider getting your facts from this reality and not the false one you invent in your imagination” Without elaborating what you mean by that, the only way I can take it is if you believe me to have delusions.
When you say stuff like: “You have no idea what genocide means” you accuse me of ignorance, despite the fact that earlier I made it clear what I meant by it, and even cited the genocide convention. The only way I can take this is that you believe me to be dumb (which may be true TBH).
You didn’t attack my arguments, rather you assumed my worldview to be delusional or ignorant and ordered me to stop doing that.
You also accused me of anti-semitism elsewhere, but I choice not to engage with that.
You're the one who is reading into what I'm saying... why not just take it at face value, I'm asking you to only take facts from the real world not some imaginary propaganda one. I would say that at this point it's becoming increasingly clear you're gaslighting and/or trolling and not arguing in good faith, well played.
From the continued insistence on a false accusation of genocide against all Jews to the willful ignorance about the history of Israel. I guess I should have expected no less from someone with pronouns on their profile.
> I'm asking you to only take facts from the real world not some imaginary propaganda one
> You continue to appeal to authority as if that proves everything. Nothing you've said in this entire discussion is based in reality.
> anything can be true… doesn’t mean it actually is tho, it could be true we’re living on the sun… especially if we totally redefine the meaning of “living”, “true”, and “sun”.
> Calling AJ or WP established news organizations is like calling water dry. They're both propaganda arms of the same type of people
> These are people incapable of understanding the actual facts on the ground either because they've been totally brainwashed or like in your case, their jobs prevent them from accepting rational arguments.
I honestly don’t know what you want me to do. If I make a claim which is widely believed, recited by international organizations as well as governments and media outlets. If I cite a news source, then you simply claim their claim is not base in reality either and/or they are just propaganda.
A pedantic side note (to bring some curiosity back into this discussion): Water can indeed be dry. When water is frozen it is indeed dry, when you touch it, it melts the surface and it is the melted liquid water you touch which is wet.
A second pedantic side note: AJ and WP (and every other media outlet) is off course propaganda. I never pretend otherwise. However they usually propagandize with editorializing, while still reporting truthfully, these are all true statements:
“34 000 have been murdered by the Israeli military in an ongoing genocide in Gaza”
“Israeli assaults have now killed at least 34 000 in Gaza”
“Hamas controlled Gaza health ministry has now confirmed 34 000 lost their lives in Gaza”
Even though they are propaganda, there is still a widely excepted true statement in there that we can use as source. If you want to dispute that, then you are going to have to provide some evidence, and honestly this is such a widely believed number I will probably not believe the evidence you would give against it.
all three quotes are false and do not reflect reality. A true statement would be:
"Hamas, a genocidal organization that has often been found to make inaccurate or totally false statements is claiming without sufficient evidence or proof that 34,000 people have been killed in the ongoing war they started; the IDF confirms it has killed at least 15,000 Hamas or PIJ operatives".
If you'd like a succinct headline that includes some information:
"Hamas unverifiably claims more dead today, of ongoing war they initiated"
"Over 16,000 civilians killed in Hamas-started war" (group those killed by Hamas, and those killed by IDF, only using data that has been independently verified, even Hamas only claims it can actually verify ~15k of the deaths[1])
You are of course guilty of innumerable logical fallacies throughout our discussion, your favorite is of course an appeal to authority, but here you attempt the bandwagon fallacy. Just because a bunch of people have been duped into believing something to be true, that doesn't make it so. You cannot wish truth into existence.
To use that number at all without any context around the fact that it has been soundly debunked by multiple organizations who examined the claims [0] is irresponsible or more likely dishonestly malicious.
Again the only conclusion I can come to is that you are intentionally trolling.
Israel are defending themselves, showing considerable restraint in difficult circumstances. The actions of Hamas are genocide as they were and are indiscriminately targeting and attacking Jewish people.
well in that case, the israelis would be doing a terrible job as gaza in terms of pop growth is exploding (no pun intended).
Their population pyramids IS a pyramid.
There are definetely war crimes - you cannot avoid it, especially when both sides are mortal enemies for generations and palestines tactics dont shy away from using civilians, fighting in civilian clothes etc.
This is not how any genocide in history has unfolded. States usually don’t just all of a sudden use any means necessary kill every person belonging to a group (the Rwandan genocide may be the exception here). Even the holocaust didn’t start with Nazis killing every Jew on sight, but rather escalated starting with apartheid and slowly escalating over a decade to industrialized killing. There usually isn’t a coherent plan to conduct a genocide with the most efficient means available, but rather incitement, dehumanization, escalation and reaction. Israel is conducting a genocide but they are being careful while doing so. They could, in theory, drop a nuclear bomb on Gaza, but doing so would certainly loose them any sympathy. Their current conduct of slowly escalating, systemic killing and preventing aid has not cost them the support of the American government. Most likely they aim to keep it that way.
That said, a “perfect environment for hate crimes” does not excuse a genocide, nor other crimes for that matter. If it did we could excuse Hamas’ conduct on Oct 7 as well. Hate crimes ought to be prevented or prosecuted regardless of the environment they were committed in. This is why it is important to call Israel’s crimes what they are, a genocide.
The nazis literally did kill many jews on sight, what are you talking about?
You've been bleating about a genocide for 75 years and yet over those 75 the population you claim is being destroy has had absolutely explosive growth. You have no idea what genocide means, and continuing to claim that is slanderous and disrespectful!
The Gaza Genocide did not begin in 1948. The Gaza genocide started on Oct 7 2023. The Nakba refers to ethnic cleansing, not genocide. So the Genocide has been ongoing for 6 months, while ethnic cleansing campaign following occupation and apartheid has been ongoing for 76 years. This why people say something like: “It’s been 194 days and 76 years”, the former timespan is referring to the genocide while the latter the ethnic cleansing campaign.
Also to clarify, I was stating that the Nazis didn’t start their genocide by killing every Jewish person on sight, the atrocities gradually got worse over time. By the time of the 1936 Berlin Olympics the atrocities were well known and it was known what the Nazis wanted to do with Jewish people. Even still the international community failed to boycott the Olympics giving the Nazis reassurance that they could get away with the atrocities up until then, an possibly more.
So far the genocide in Gaza has the potential to be worse, and the international community consistently fails to stop it. Presumably, this is the goal of the Zionist government in Israel.
Nothing you've said is true as usual. Please stop spreading falsehoods. You're not tricking anyone, How did the Gaza Genocide start on Oct 7 2023 when Hamas started the war then with the express intent of genociding all Jews? At this point I have to assume you're just gaslighting.
Even more so, genocide makes no sense in this context, again, Israel is capable of killing many more people than it has, not only is it capable of doing so, it could likely justify those attacks to the US and it’s allies in the short term, instead it uses very different means to attempt to kill only those who pose a direct current threat. In that context it’s pretty clear there is neither intent nor conduct.
All the Jew hating European judges in the world doesn’t change that.
Pretending the UN is some higher unbiased authority is intensely naive. The UN has shown time and again that it holds Jews and Israel to an impossible standard and the many nations that make up the UN show little regard for fairness or justice, instead they are most focused on being able to commit as many atrocities at home while pointing the fingers at those dirty Jews. In fact this ridiculous case was
only brought by the SA government as a cynical ploy to redirect attention from their own failing economy and dire political outlook. As with all things involving Jews the conspiracy is always on the other side.
Additionally, the UN gets many things totally wrong for many political reasons, e.g. it’s been totally toothless wrt the Russian/Ukraine war, it’s failed to even acknowledge china’s many well documented atrocities, so appealing to its authority as “the highest court in the world” makes it clear you’re either entirely ignorant or intentionally malicious.
Maximizing the killing of peoples belonging to the victim group is not a criteria of the Genocide under international law. You don’t need to kill as many people as you are capable before the threshold for genocide is met, far from it.
Israel targets and kills a lot of people, and so far it has failed to demonstrate how the majority of them pose a threat. A good example is when al-Jazeera journalist Hamza al-Dahdouh was targeted and killed by an Israeli missile. Israel said he and his coworker were terrorists posing a direct threat to nearby soldiers. Evidence however showed that they had been covering a news story nearby and were on their way back, completely contradicting Israel’s claim. In light of the overwhelming evidence against Israel’s initial claim they simply backtracked and said it was an accident. However evidence shows that their car was indeed targeted[1]. Hamza al-Dahdouh is only one of thousands of such cases. The only reasonable explanation is that Israel targets and kills non-combatants on mass scale in an ongoing genocide against Palestinians in Gaza.
There is no evidence Hamza al-Dahdouh and Mustafa Thuraya were “spotters”. Not even Israel claims they were “spotters”.
We have records of their work, and their plan the day they were targeted, we have their employers corroborating that plan, we have visual evidence of their locations and witnesses of what they were doing that day. The evidence they were journalists doing journalism is overwhelming, to a point where Israel doesn’t even deny it anymore.
Well if we're going to do this I'll start by pointing out that people that excuse Hamas's atrocities and crimes not only against Israeli Arabs and Jews but also against the people of Gaza are complicit. This constant encouraging of such things by outsiders such as yourself is why the disaster has been going on for the last 75 years. You keep telling the Palestinian's to keep up the struggle we support you. And it's just misery year after year.
So you are right, we have records of all their work... so why would you post falsehoods... Based on their own work they were spying on an IDF encampment in the area, its so sad that you can't even do the barest of research and present obviously misleading information and then have the audacity to accuse someone of being slanderous and disrespectful, you've been slandering Jews all day on multiple threads but get insulted when someone calls a spade a spade.
Additionally, every single time so far that Israel was accused of killing a journalist its later come out the "journalist" was working with Hamas, Obviously the Hamas propaganda mouthpiece (AJ) isn't gonna publicize that when they have people like you who will happily swallow every single falsehood they peddle. Please consider getting your facts from this reality and not the false one you invent in your imagination, barring that simply sit down and stop spreading more hate.
> Based on their own work they were spying on an IDF encampment in the area
Where is that work? Where did you read that? I haven’t seen it. I gave you a link to a story by an established media organization which outlines the story includes quotes from interviews, answers to questions, quotes other media organizations (including the NBC). Other media outlets seem to agree with al-Jazeera here. Here is a link from Washington post on the same story: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/03/19/gaza-journal...
Could you extend me the courtesy and provide me with the source of where you got the information that Hamza Dahdouh and Mustafa Thuraya were spying on the IDF? I don’t even know where to begin looking for where you could read that. The IDF doesn’t even claim they were, instead stating they were shot by mistake (which is it self a questionable claim).
Calling AJ or WP established news organizations is like calling water dry. They're both propaganda arms of the same type of people who have never had a good thing to say about Jews.
AJ in particular is literally owned by the very people harboring and funding Hamas. while WP is owned by and run by the same people who chant "from the river..." and talk about the Nakba and the innocent palestinians without any irony. These are people incapable of understanding the actual facts on the ground either because they've been totally brainwashed or like in your case, their jobs prevent them from accepting rational arguments.
I think we can safely conclude that you have no source for your original claim of spying and are just resorting to throwing mud when people request evidence for your false claims. If you're trying to convince anyone, I would highly recommend more evidence and less name-calling and accusations of brainwashing. Have the day you deserve.
After a lot of gish galloping and moving the goal post, you finally found a claim in one of my side notes which you could dispute with sources. This claim was merely a demonstration of media bias, an example of how true statements can be editorialized to adhere to propaganda. I was using this to agree with you that Al Jazeera was indeed spouting propaganda while still telling the truth.
This was the number of victims to date.
The BBC is just like Al Jazeera. A biased media outlet owned and funded by a partial state, which runs an independent news program. Qatar and, by extension, Al Jazeera is partial towards the Palestinian cause while the UK and, by extension, the BBC are partial towards Israel. Here are two articles by the news outlet partial towards Israel which dispute your disputing of the casualty numbers.
Of course this was never engaging with my claims, rather it was finding a single claim (no matter how irrelevant) which you could dispute, win an argument over, and claim victory on the whole debate. If you wanted to engage with my true claims, you would provide me with a source on where you read that Hamza al-Dahdouh and Mustafa Thuraya were Hamas “spotters” spying on IDF encampment in the area. You would tell me which definition of Genocide you are using and explain how Israel’s conduct doesn’t fall under it. You would dispute the 85 page document filed by South Africa claiming genocide, not by ad-hominem stating that South Africa is an evil country, nor by claiming me citing it is an appeal to authority, but by reading the content, providing counter points and counter evidence of the report.
Just to get back on topic: You claim that the only people in the world who can define genocide are the very people who have perpetrated genocide after genocide against basically every other minority, now those very same people, who actively participated in the murder of millions, get to decide if some minority that they don't like is evil; that's essentially the claim you are making.
Consider that maybe such people don't have any idea what they're talking about and are simply totally wrong. Consider that you wanting the Jews to be doing something evil so you can be justified in your hatred doesn't mean the Jews are doing anything wrong, it just means that you have hatred in your heart. Is it possible?
You keep asking me to be curious, why don't you try being curious about why you, after only ever consuming content that paints Jews in the worst possible light, might not be capable of giving them the benefit of the doubt? Why it might be literally impossible for you to view any topic about Jews through a fair lens?
Never in this thread, nor anywhere else on HN, nor anywhere else do I speak generally about the Jews. In fact, when I see people doing that here on HN, I flag it. “The Jews” are not committing a genocide, they are not committing war crimes, they are not oppressing Palestinians. I don’t claim that, the UN doesn’t claim that, the only people claiming that are actual anti-Semites, and neither me, nor all pro-Palestinan people I know, want anything to do with these anti-Semites (except maybe punch them in the face).
The state of Israel is committing genocide, and “The Jews” have absolutely nothing to with the state of Israel. Which ethnicity the leaders of the state of Israel has, has nothing to with the rest of the people who share that ethnicity. To be absolutely clear: The Jews have done absolutely nothing wrong. In fact, I don’t want the Jews to do anything, except continue to exist and share their amazing culture with the rest of the world.
Now, with that out of the way. Genocide is clearly defined by the UN. It is a pretty universal and undisputed definition. Most nation (152 to be exact; see list[1]) have signed and put into law this same definition, including both Israel (in 1950) and Palestine (in 2014). This includes nations in both hemispheres, on all 6 habitable continents, of all major religion, indigenous nations, former colonies, current colonizers, countries with minority representation, majority minority nations, homogeneous nations etc. Even countries that have in the past been perpetrators and victims of genocide have signed on this definition of Genocide.
I’m not making any claims here which isn’t pretty much universally accepted. And according to this definition—which is universally accepted—it has been ruled by many experts and a legal authority on the matter, that it is plausible that Israel (not the Jews) are committing genocide against Palestinians in Gaza as a group.
You see, I also want Palestinians in Gaza to continue to exist and share their amazing culture with the rest of the world. And as of now it is plausible that the state of Israel is working to deny them this existence, by committing a genocide against them. For that I do indeed hate the state of Israel, just as I hate Nazis trying to deny Jewish people the right to exist. In fact my heart is full of hatred towards the ideology of Zionism. But at the same time my heart is full of love towards Jewish people.
I’m curious, what does Israel need to do before you’ll consider it criminal, how should those crimes be reported before you’ll believe them, instead of rejecting them as anti-semitic lies?
As we speak people are investigating a the mass grave at Nasser hospital in Khan Younis. I’ll give you 4 pro-Zionist or pro Israel sources reporting on it[1][2][3][4] (including one which 3/4 of the news is a direct quote from the IDF[4]). The final count of bodies found in that mass-grave is 392, and all sources agree at least 200 people were burred there.
The IDF claims there is no mass-grave and that the bodies were unearthed months ago. CNN (a pro-zionist newspaper) is not convinced and claims to have evidence that which counters the IDF claims[5], including evidence that some of the victims burred in their hospital gowns.
There are even reports that many of the bodies show signs of torture, executions, and being buried alive[6]. There are calls for an independent investigation from all sides except the IDF (who want no investigation) and the US State Department (that wants Israel to investigate their own crimes). I’m sure there will be an investigation and it will conclude the existence of the mass grave with at least 200 victims of IDF violence (the 392 figure probably includes older bodies). I’m also sure this future independent investigation will conclude there are some evidence of torture and at least 10 victims were executed.
Let’s say for the sake of argument that I’m right, and in 2 months this report comes out. Will you then simply claim that the independent investigation was conducted by Jew-haters and is not based in reality?
Let’s level set, everyone agrees that CNN, BBC, and NBC are much more sympathetic to Hamas than they are to any Jews or Israel. The NYT is historically much more sympathetic to Arabs than they are to Jews, the one exception being the rape report which has caused a giant outcry internally because it casts Hamas and Arabs in such a negative light. So your claim is bogus on its face, you claim to be bringing “pro-Zionist” sources but are instead bringing mostly pro-terrorist sources.
But let’s get back on topic: you’ve totally ignored everything I’ve said and brought in another red herring to deflect to. I can easily reject this “mass-graves” nonsense as you can easily see from the IDF claims they were just digging up graves to confirm that no hostages were buried there. Hamas themselves reported months ago that they dug and filled a mass grave… you continue to lie and make totally false claims.
For me to believe any claims of war crimes they MUST come from credible sources. Who is credible? Well considering every single Gazan we’ve seen so far has shown themselves ready to lie about everything, I’d say we’d need irrefutable video and audio footage, from multiple angles, fully contextualized from start to finish like Hamas provided for their own crimes (Which you still deny happened at all).
So far all you’ve done is bring lies and innuendo as well as your own skewed sick biases.
I find it very telling that you refuse to acknowledge that Israel and the Jewish people are irrefutably linked, that you continue to toss around “Zionist” like some sort of insult and that thus far you’ve refused to even consider your own biases.
If the report comes out and shows with actual irrefutable evidence that genocide was committed then I would concede to your conclusion, but considering no war crimes have yet been committed by Israel or the IDF, despite this being the most watched conflict in the world, I know what we’re gonna see is a report full of lies and misinformation that does its hardest to redefine what war crimes are, what genocide is and then paint the target around that. Handily lampooning Israel and Jews alone while ignoring the fact that these new definitions will obviously implicate everyone who engages in any conflict in anyway.
What would you need to see to be convinced that no war crimes by Jews took place, that instead you were fed lies? Would it be enough to see Hamas admit to telling lies constantly? Would be enough to be shown that Hamas has never once told the truth? Would it be enough to see that Hamas film themselves committing war crimes and then blaming the Jews? What would it take?
Finally the fact that you claiming that all western media is pro-zionist tells me that you are 100% trolling. Likely for some disinformation producing country like Russia or Iran. This will be my last engagement with you.
I don't know what universe you're living in where you believe the "Hamas isn't a terrorist org" BBC is pro Israel, but again it just goes to show me that you're not even remotely pretending to argue from a place of honesty and are just spouting trollism nonsense to bait me.
As usual, you've gone overboard in spreading lies and misinformation. Not once have I ever moved the goal posts, you're the one who keeps introducing more lies and then backtracking or ignoring me every time I call you out.
Please just be honest and admit: you hate jews... it's ok you're in good company. But pretending to be concerned about a people who have no regard for their own life is so sad and pointless.
Lol, anything can be true… doesn’t mean it actually is tho, it could be true we’re living on the sun… especially if we totally redefine the meaning of “living”, “true”, and “sun”.
Your comment didn’t add anything at all. I pointed out, the people making these claims have a bunch of ulterior motives that are totally at odds with them coming to a honest conclusion and you agreed and then baselessly made another claim that genocide could be happening without any further evidence.
People in power having ulterior motives does not invalidate the claim that the Israeli government's policies can be classified a genocide. Or do you believe only pure angels can make judgement calls?
Again, if the Jews' action can be classified as genocide then so can your actions, everyone is guilty of genocide simply for existing. Genocide has actual meaning and isn't simply empty rhetoric used by sophomoric college students. Making the claim doesn't make it true, it simply shows that the people making the claims are guilty of extreme hate.
