Hacker Newsnew | past | comments | ask | show | jobs | submitlogin

There's also that they "decided" that none of their core customer bases actually matter. They no longer cater to the needs of anyone.

Some random examples:

Enterprise -- It's cloud or the highway. You're either migrating to Azure and Microsoft 365, or stuck in dead-ends with virtually no maintenance/attention. Core products have just been left twisting in the wind. Active Directory for example has had no major feature updates since 2016. Microsoft themselves use Linux for many of their Azure PaaS/SaaS services, which is very telling. There's no on-prem equivalents of CosmosDB, Log Analytics, and a range of other "core" services developed for Azure.

Gamers -- Windows gaming is a shit-show and all development effort is focused on XBox. Occasionally, reluctantly, features will be backported from XBox to PC, but usually broken or limited in some critical way. For example, DirectStorage for PC was under NDA until very recently, and there were few (zero?) games shipping with that capability. HDR gaming on Windows is a total mess as well, with one lone blog article talking about bringing the HDR tuning app to PC form XBox "some unspecified time in the future". Without this, HDR is totally and utterly broken, unless the PC is plugged into an external TV... like an XBox.

Content Creation -- Windows used to be better and more commonly used than Apple for a while, especially in some areas. Not any more. The endless series of penny-pinching decisions and broken features have driven artists away in droves. Some random examples: Windows 11 shipped with totally broken colour management. As in, absolutely non-functional. Windows 11 also broke HDR even further, and it was broken in Windows 10 to begin with. You literally cannot display or view HDR correctly on the primary ("built in") monitor of any Windows PC. It was broken on purpose, and then... left like that. It's possible the next semi-annual build will "fix" it, but I wouldn't hold my breath. Dolby Vision is not enabled by default. Camera RAW decoders are not installed by default. H.264 is not installed by default. The built-in photo viewers and editors are not color-managed. Wide Color Gamut (WCG) support was removed at every level. It's just gone. Microsoft wants to enshrine SDR sRGB forever in an era where every new phone and every Apple device is wide-gamut and HDR.

Software Developers -- See Casey Muratori's rants about the ludicrous degradation of basic quality controls in Visual Studio, Windows Terminal, etc... For example, VS 2022 can't keep up with debug single-stepping on that fastest machine money can buy, but ancient PCs running older versions had no trouble. But that's just a small annoyance. The real problem is that Windows GUI development is dead. It may as well not exist any more. There is no supported GUI framework that isn't a dead-end, formally unsupported, or restricted to "mobile phone app" levels. Even Microsoft recognises this, and most of their new GUI products (e.g.: Teams) are Electron apps. What little new stuff they're putting out (e.g.: Visual Studio Code) is a tyre fire of low quality tools trying to appeal to the Linux/Mac crowd at the expense of majority used to Windows.

To summarise: if in 2022 I want to develop a GUI app, or display anything with the correct colour, or HDR, or any similarly advanced features, my best approach is to use Google's Chromium. If I want to write a game, use Vulkan, not DirectX. If I want to create a web app, use Linux. If I want to use a database, Postgres. If I want authentication, then anything but Active Directory. If I want to use dev tools, use IntelliJ.

There is nothing left where the #1 best approach is Microsoft Windows or some other Microsoft product.



The cash cow will always be Microsoft Office. That's what governments use and because of that companies use it, and because of that everyone uses it.


Bingo. All these posts that say "oh just use Linux, it's compatible!" must be from naive junior devs who never have had to to deal with external organizations (especially governments) that require you to use their Word templates and share PowerPoint slides on their Teams calls.


Teams works on Linux now.

It's a pig of an app especially on Mac (haven't tried Linux enough to verify) but it runs.

On my Mac it takes a minute to start (fast M1 system), randomly crashes or hangs and often uses more than half my memory. But it is supported :)


It "works," but not well enough for my purposes. I need to be able to share PowerPoint on Teams with my full slides visible to participants, and speaker notes visible only to me. There's no native PowerPoint for Linux, so that's a no-go.


PDFs? Unless participants need to edit the actual slides themselves what's wrong with PDFs? Most half decent PDF readers these days have a presentation mode where it goes full screen and arrow keys page through. Yes, you lose swoopy animations, sound effects and video but that's arguably a plus. And participants can read the slides on a wider range of devices with little hassle. Your speaker notes can stay with whatever slide program was used to make them.


My government funding overlords require me to send them PPTXs and DOCXs. And MS Teams on Linux only supports full-screen sharing, not window-specific sharing, so I can't do presenter view on my screen and slides-only on the call.

I feel a lot of responses here are missing the point. Linux doesn't do what I need it to do with respect to the established MS Office norms I have to conform to. Linux is a bad tool for my required workflow (a workflow that isn't all that uncommon), so I keep Windows around because it's a more suitable tool for that.

I'll repeat what I said: Linux is a great tool when you're a junior individual contributor, but it sucks when you're responsible for external communications with MS Office organizations.


While I'm sympathetic to this because it's, well, simply true for many people, I think it's always important to bear in mind that

> Linux doesn't do what I need it to do with respect to the established MS Office norms I have to conform to.

Is an entirely deliberate outcome that Microsoft has pushed hard for over decades (as you'd expect, since losing that monopoly is an existential threat to them).


I have no idea why the Linux Teams application is so limited. Instead on Linux to get the missing features you can run browser based teams in Chrome or Edge. It supports window specific sharing. Can also do blurred and virtual webcam backgrounds (but does not support custom virtual background).


It does actually work very in-browser office 365 powerpoint on linux.


That's not terribly different to my Teams experience on Windows 10.


It kind of works on Linux now. The only way I was able to join a call as a guest (not to my tenant!) was to launch it in Edge -- the native client crashed on launch if invoked to join an external meeting.


The cash cow is changing to be M365 and Azure now. I don't think it'll be too long till the web versions catch up and replace desktop office.


That is why I think Microsoft should someday consider Open Source Windows, or at least the kernel. Leave the UI and Library on top closed source as a moat on user for compatibility.


> What little new stuff they're putting out (e.g.: Visual Studio Code) is a tyre fire of low quality tools

I have no idea why you would say this. VS Code is an incredibly popular and well-liked product.


It is popular because it filled a niche where next to nothing existed, so for people in those fields anything is a step up.

For people like me forced to come over from Visual Studio and other editors, it's a huge step down.

For example, instead of making improvements to the PowerShell Integrated Scripting Environment (ISE), Microsoft marked it as deprecated and "forced" everyone over to Visual Studio Code, whether they like it or not. E.g.: it's the only Microsoft IDE with PowerShell Core (pwsh) support.

Despite being the only supported Microsoft PowerShell IDE, VS Code does not play nice with PowerShell. For example, if I open Code, it opens three(3!) PowerShell terminals for unfathomable reasons. One of those starts with errors, the other works, but the third one is the default and crashes if you look at it sideways. Tab-complete just... stops. Even when tab-complete "works", it'll often start mid way through the list, hiding all of the relevant items and showing your random garbage like "quick start snippets" that make zero sense in the given tab-complete context.

I could rant for hours on how poor the Visual Studio Code quality is, but nobody will listen, because for people upgrading from Notepad, it's the second coming of Jesus.

Then there's always the smart-ass that explains patiently that this is all my fault for not "customising" my VS Code experience with JSON configuration settings that are seven levels deep and documented only in some blog article from three years ago. Meanwhile, I've never had to customise anything in Visual Studio. It "just works" the way you'd expect a Windows application to work. Not some Linux-Windows hybrid intended to be the "embrace" part of the unholy "embrace-extend-extinguish" trio.


There are a ton of editors both free and paid for that niche you mentioned. Visual Studio code wasn't even the first one made with Electron, there was one called Atom before it. I have used and continue to use Sublime Text, and at work they install Notepad++ on all computers by default.

I guess though if you're coming from raw notepad then that is a step up.

And with anything "browser based" like VS Code you're going to always spawn a ton of processes to do even the simplest things.


> For people like me forced to come over from Visual Studio and other editors, it's a huge step down.

Sure, if your entire usage is the stuff that VS does well (which is a very narrow range compared to Code), and you are used to VS, it's probably an annoyance.

> I could rant for hours on how poor the Visual Studio Code quality is, but nobody will listen, because for people upgrading from Notepad, it's the second coming of Jesus.

Almost none of the things I do with Code I would have done with Notepad before. There are lots of non-IDE programmers editors that existed before Code. It may not be as good as VS or some IntelliJ variants for the use cases those IDEs are best for, but it's better for almost everything else than almost anything, and even for the things those major commercial IDEs specialize in, it's good enough for lots of specific use cases that when you need to do that plus other things, the context switch of using the commercial IDE for some tasks isn't worth it.


I don't think the (not very good) PowerShell extension is a great basis for judging VS Code as a whole.

I've spent most of my career in Visual Studio, I have a great deal of respect for how it just works, nobody's forcing me to leave it and yet... I'm mostly done with it. I'd rather use VS Code for C# development these days; it nails a lot of speed+UX things that Visual Studio doesn't.


Well, from his point of view he's right to judge it, since he's being forced to use it and it's crap for his use case, extensions or not.


Popular is not the same as quality. That's something that MS seem genuinely unable to understand - examples of a better product are countered with "our product is X times bigger, it is better". Well, no - X times bigger is probably momentum, or network effect, or sneaky placement/contracts - it has nothing to so with the quality of the product.

Similar "well liked" very often really means "the only product I've used" or "the only product I know well" :(


That consumes a full core for intellisense the entire time it's running if you have a large c++ codebase.


There is no supported GUI framework that isn't a dead-end, formally unsupported, or restricted to "mobile phone app" levels.

Win32?


Dead end.


I wouldn't say that, it's basically what keeps Windows alive.


Win32 is on life support. Many new features added since Vista don't work with it at all, or require complex code to enable in Win32 apps.


They surely do, because COM is part of Win32.

Now I admit it is a bit more complex than calling C functions, but only if one insists in calling COM from C.


I got the impression that Windows used to make APIs so that others could use the same UI elements as the OS in their programs. Have they stopped doing that?


More or less... yes.

Win32 was the one and only GUI framework. If you wrote your app for Windows, it would look like Windows. This was true for Windows NT, Windows 2000, and XP.

Then Office got the Ribbon UI but they decided not to let anyone else use it. Then Vista got the Windows Presentation Foundation (WPF), which was a lot like HTML, but used XML and had a more powerful styling+templating system. At one point they even tried to make JavaScript Windows applications a thing over a decade before it unfortunately did become a thing (Electron).

The problem is that WPF, like HTML, allowed nearly "anything". You could style any control any way that you wanted. So WPF apps looked somewhat... random.

Worse, it turned out that WPF was just too slow for applications, to the point that Microsoft themselves almost never used it. Instead, they used incompatible bits and pieces of it with C++ so that they could have something reasonably fast. But this wasn't WPF, and didn't look the same as user apps, and wasn't even internally consistent!

Now there are something like 10+ UI frameworks from Microsoft alone, not including third-party ones that can run on Windows.

This is why the Windows 11 interface is such a mess.


Ribbon UI is availabe in Win32 as a COM library.


Vulkan tooling is still quite poor when compared with DirectX, thanks the way Khronos always leaves to the community to do the needfull.

Hot reloading with C++ outside Visual Studio? Good luck with that if not willing to shell out some bucks for Live++.

Other frameworks are still relearning the ways of WPF and Blend tooling.

Many things make me angry how Microsoft management is dealing with them, yet the alternatives are even worse.

Only the Java ecosystem is a sound alternative to MS tooling, regardless of their current misdirection.




Guidelines | FAQ | Lists | API | Security | Legal | Apply to YC | Contact

Search: