Please understand that I am saying this in a compassionate, not a judgmental way. I think the key developmental step is to be able to get over yourself. I think this is a fundamental part in becoming a mature person. Many of us are forced through this step against our will and maybe without realizing it. Either through our job, or significant other, or kids, or some other experience that just overwhelms you. Apparently you are a tougher nut to crack than most people. It's not easy because it's like part of you has to die and it doesn't go quietly.

But on the other side, where it becomes easy to start thinking about others first, everything starts to fall into place. We were made to be like this. A human child tends to be self-focused. A human adult must be much more selfless. And I don't think we can really be happy until we achieve this state. When you can find joy in satisfying others, you have access to a bottomless well of happiness. (Then it turns out satisfying others is pretty hard even when you are really trying)

It's funny because this is something religion usually stresses as well, so if you've avoided that you really might be missing out.

Thank you. You shouldn't be downvoted for saying this. I feel like you're saying what everyone else around me is thinking, but nobody has ever actually said.

I don't even know why you'd have to preface it by saying you mean to be compassionate. If your belief is the common one, why isn't that something people talk about? Is it that taboo? Shouldn't this death of self be celebrated if it's how were made to be?

Also, I think it's not a coincidence that my views on this definitely have not changed since I was a kid that hated school. I also rejected religion as a kid, and have continued to do so as an adult. Seems like you've got me figured out so far.

> It's not easy because it's like part of you has to die and it doesn't go quietly.

That is exactly what it feels like.

> But on the other side, where it becomes easy to start thinking about others first, everything starts to fall into place.

This is where you lost me. From my perspective, I would be a better person without the work obligation. I don't really know what I'd do without the obligation to work, but it would probably be more philanthropic than whatever my employer has me doing. Maybe I'd work on free software or anti-censorship? Or maybe I'd find joy in helping the disadvantaged in my local community? Or maybe I'd find virtue in starting a family? I have no idea, but I won't find out unless I luck into a few million bucks, because I can barely function while I'm employed. I can assure you I'd be a greater asset to society if I was unemployed than building commercial software.

> And I don't think we can really be happy until we achieve this state. When you can find joy in satisfying others, you have access to a bottomless well of happiness.

I don't understand. Are you saying that I should accept some greater wisdom that giving my employer my best waking hours is helping the company, and that is somehow greater than helping myself? If that were the path to fulfillment in life, I should be taking a pay cut and working longer hours, which is quite the opposite of what I'm trying to do here. I'm trying to hoard as much as possible because I know society won't support me later if I become unable to support myself. Which incidentally, is also what I believe my employer is doing for himself.

I suspect society only works because your view is widespread, but I still can't understand it.

Thanks for the thoughtful response. I didn't mean that becoming selfless should make you more dedicated to your job. It might do that, depending on your job. But the main thing is that you can start to enjoy everything more, particularly whatever it is you really should be doing.

If you are in a place where you decide you should really be working, then you can work and not feel miserable about it. If you are in a place where you can live a fuller life without working a regular job, then you should do that instead. There's nothing wrong with helping people out at work, while getting money so that you can help yourself and your loved ones out at home. And you can enjoy both parts. As long as you aren't doing something you'd consider evil at your job. Then the same selflessness might help you to either quit or make change inside the company, without having so much fear about what will happen to you.

If you are so miserable while doing any kind of thing in a set way over any length of time, then you may find a soul-crushing moment where you have achieved permanent financial independence, are living your dream, and find this feeling overtaking you again. But this time there is no hope of an eventual way out.

Ok, that makes sense, but you make it sound like I know what I should be doing.

It's impossible to know what I should be doing in any kind of optimal way without knowing when I'm going to die.

If I'm going to die next year, I'd be pretty upset that I didn't quit my job today.

If I'm going to die far in the future, then I'm going to die homeless if I quit my job today, because I don't think I'd be ever be able to force myself to go back. I sometimes wonder what percentage of homeless people started off like me, where they couldn't take it anymore so they quit and then the money runs out.

> If you are so miserable while doing any kind of thing in a set way over any length of time, then you may find a soul-crushing moment where you have achieved permanent financial independence, are living your dream, and find this feeling overtaking you again. But this time there is no hope of an eventual way out.

I don't even think I'd be upset if this is what happens. At least I'd learn something about myself. I really have no idea who I am, and I've never had the chance to explore who I'd be without work for more than a couple of weeks at a time. Based on the few limited breaks I've had over the years, I suspect I'd be a very different person than I am today.

I honestly feel the same way as you, but inexplicably without the suicidal ideation. I'm not happy, per se, but I feel I've hit a spot different from either yours or who you're replying to. I agree with everything you've said, but my emotional self just goes on for whatever reason. I wish I had some actual advice or something, but all I can really say is, I'm an example that shows, at least in some people, "situation" and "how the situation changes my emotional state" are partially orthogonal.

That's a useful data point. It's hard to get a sense of these things when nobody ever wants to talk about them.

Perhaps another way to phrase a similar thought.

You’re probably right, ones life, and the world for that matter, could be different in ways that would be better. And this fact certainly deserves some amount of mourning. Especially things that seems to be just within reach.

But then again, if we take that thought to it’s extreme there’s no end to it, how different can we which for before being unreasonable? My goto example being that I wasn’t born with wings, and yes sometimes this fact saddens me, but overall not to an extent that it takes away my happiness for everything in my life I’m thankful of. Flying would be nice, but so is spending an evening dining with family, and this I can do (a fact I’m grateful of, not everyone is so lucky).

Perhaps it would be better to be born in another era, say a thousand years from now? A million? And yet, this place and time is probably so much better than many others I could have been born in. Would I be happier if I didn’t need oxygen? Eternal life? Perhaps. But why bother thinking about it The die has been cast, the rules of the game has been selected, I might as well enjoy it while playing.

I don't think the answer is subservience to an employer or sticking with the rat-race or religion, but it might be that an OP up-chain implied that once you have children, being at their service is a very pure, simplifying experience. If you're battling reality now, children won't be a solution because they also up the difficulty level a huge amount, but reading them a book is priceless, seeing them smile is priceless, going for a walk together is priceless. They make simple things brilliant.

It gives you an easier purpose than "maybe I'll work on anti-censorship stuff". Do you have niblings you can spend time with? Being an uncle/aunt or an equivalent to friends' children can be great too. Once upon a time, I considered myself definitely not the baby type, but now I have three kids and enjoy hanging out with my nephew, etc.

What about the outdoors?

Your "get over yourself" and "mature person" bits fill me with frustration and anger. I'm sorry for that, but it's there.

Being selfless is great. Hating the grind of a 40 hour / week job, versus "accepting" it has nothing to do with selflessness.

I didn't say being more selfless meant becoming a slave to your employer. I clarified in another post that becoming more selfless can actually help you to leave a toxic environment too. Or maybe you might realize that you were part of the reason it was so toxic, and you take that with you wherever you go. In that case running doesn't help. I don't know what OPs situation is or what yours is. Once you let go of yourself a bit, and readjust your mindset and priorities accordingly, based on whoever you are and whatever situation you are in, then it will likely become more clear what you should do. And it will be easier, and even enjoyable, to do what you should do.

I don't think we were designed to be miserable, so if we are stuck in misery isn't it logical to think we might be pursuing joy in the wrong things?

> But on the other side, where it becomes easy to start thinking about others first, everything starts to fall into place. We were made to be like this. A human child tends to be self-focused. A human adult must be much more selfless. And I don't think we can really be happy until we achieve this state. When you can find joy in satisfying others, you have access to a bottomless well of happiness. (Then it turns out satisfying others is pretty hard even when you are really trying)

I think you're right, but what does work have to do with any of that? Maybe some jobs are about helping people, but most aren't really.

If anything a job makes it harder for most people to be selfless because they don't have the time.

The people you are helping is your family (via your income from the job).

My plan is to not have any family because of this employment problem. It'd be neat to have kids I guess, but however good it is cannot possibly be worth an extra 20 years of employment.