Hacker Newsnew | past | comments | ask | show | jobs | submit | Gud's commentslogin

The reaction by the Israelis against the Palestinians is even worse

The reaction is worse in what sense, exactly? Raw numbers? Then you're back to the same argument as above, where October 7th (again, the third deadliest terrorist attack since records began in 1970) somehow doesn't count.

Nobody serious disputes that Gazan civilians are suffering enormously. The argument isn't about that. It's about whether Hamas represents them, and the answer is: less and less, given that Hamas hasn't held an election since 2006, has siphoned aid money into tunnels and rockets for two decades [1], and on October 7th sent men with garden tools to decapitate Thai agricultural workers [2] and film themselves doing it.

You can condemn Israel's conduct (and there's plenty to condemn) without pretending the people who started this particular escalation were freedom fighters having a bad day.

[1] https://www.csis.org/analysis/hamass-october-7-attack-visual...

[2] https://www.nationthailand.com/world/middle-east-africa/4003...


I think wholesale genocide of an entire population by the Israeli state is worse. The plan is obviously drive the Palestinians onto the sea (metaphorically) and make the place uninhabitable.

Israel (and I want to be clear, I am referring to Israel the state) has blood on their hands. This went way beyond a "self defense" thing - flattening the entire country, indiscriminate killing of civilians and children, murdering paramedics and bombing ambulances, destroying schools hospitals apartment buildings etc. By a modern democratic state with the most accurate smart weapons available. It's simply unbelievable to me that they are getting away with it.


Most of what you say I don't disagree with. Israel's conduct since October 8th (the civilian death toll, the aid blockade, the flattening of hospitals) is legitimate to call out. The ICJ found the genocide claim plausible enough to issue binding provisional measures, which Israel then ignored [1]. That's not nothing.

But "wholesale genocide" and "the plan is obviously to drive them into the sea" are stronger claims than the evidence supports right now, and that matters a lot because the moment you overreach, everyone who wants to dismiss Palestinian suffering has a rhetorical exit. The ICJ's own careful language exists for a reason.

None of that touches the original argument anyway: that October 7th was not a "small blip." Israel's conduct after October 8th doesn't retroactively change what happened on October 7th. Both things are true simultaneously. That's the whole point I'm making.

[1] https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/02/26/israel-not-complying-wor...


No, I think I have to respectfully disagree: in the continuum of the Palestine-Israel conflict, this was a small blip. Israel has been killing civilians indiscriminately for years/decades, annexing territory, bulldozing homes etc.

What was different this time was that it was Israel who was the victim, not the Palestinians. And the only way that Israel knows how to respond to these kinds of things is to kill and to destroy.


"What was different this time was that it was Israel who was the victim."

You've just described the deadliest day for Jews since the Holocaust [1] as a blip because, in your accounting, it was Israel's turn to absorb one.

The "continuum" framing doesn't hold up numerically either. In non-war years, OCHA records roughly 100–200 Palestinian deaths annually at Israeli hands [2]. Hamas killed 1,139 people before lunchtime. That's not a blip in a continuum, it's five to ten years of equivalent deaths in eight hours.

The youngest victim was 14 hours old [3]. The oldest was a 92-year-old Holocaust survivor [3]. None of those facts change based on who you think had it coming.

[1] https://www.ushmm.org/information/press/press-releases/museu...

[2] https://www.ochaopt.org/content/casualties-thousands-killed-...

[3] https://www.yahoo.com/news/youngest-october-7-victim-just-00...


I would have figured the families of the Jews who built Israel would have realized "holocaust bad, never again".

What they learned was "never again to us".

Just because your family had a holocaust executed against them, doesnt give you any (legal, ethical, moral) right to run your own holocaust.

And Israel is running a holocaust in Palestine, and has been for decades.


>I think wholesale genocide of an entire population by the Israeli state is worse

would be worse, but wasn't contemplated nor attempted so contributes no weight to the balance.

"from the river to the sea" on the other hand is a statement of genocidal intent.


You do realize that there were live Israeli hostages Hamas held up until the last ceasefire?

"Nobody serious disputes that Gazan civilians are suffering enormously."

This is blatantly untrue. There are people who are saying there's no such thing as a "Gazan civilian".


Come off it, that's a technicality and everyone knows the meaning.

An uncharitable person would easily debunk this by making claims about the idea that 'because of israel they can't have a state to be civilian of' and then the topic gets super muddy because that's technically not true and we go around and around and around.


> Nobody serious disputes that Gazan civilians are suffering enormously. The argument isn't about that.

Why isn’t it?


Because it's a different argument to the one being made, and addressing seventeen things at once is how threads become unreadable.

But since you're asking: go up four comments and you'll find it already addressed there in some detail. Keep up.


Aged quickly

It does work

And wtf does it even matter? Such a weird comment to even make.

lol “chatbots”.

I’m using these chatbots to produce advanced software. Chatbots, get real


Is this a debate over who is the harder-core developer? That's of interest to nobody. Probably not even us.

Safety is an illusion.

Build up yourself


Intelligent people read books.

That you know of.

Just look what happened to RMS when they refused to share the source code to his faulty printer. He’s been on a warpath ever since

There is plenty of technology companies in Europe.

It might not seem like it for the HN crowd, who mostly make a living stringing web libraries together.


Apple is the same size as Europe's tech sector...just Apple.

Of the top 50 tech companies on Earth, 3 are European and 30 are American.[1]

Europe has a seriously lacking tech scene. The situation is borderline catastrophic.Even just this past week the OpenClaw guy ditched the EU for the US, calling out the EU's infertile business scene[2]. These are exactly the kind of people the EU should be clearing a path for and rolling out a rug. Wake up.

[1]https://companiesmarketcap.com/tech/largest-tech-companies-b... [2]https://www.businessinsider.com/openclaw-creator-slams-europ...


> calling out the EU's infertile business scene

lol, it's always because of money. European tech startups often sell out to US investors because they offer more money.

I've worked for companies that plodded along nicely privately owned, 20-50 employees, but they got "offers they couldn't refuse" from US companies and sold. Usually just buying us to stamp out potential competition/buying a customer base


That explanation is not enough. What are you supposed to do with more money if your dream in life is to create cutting edge tech? There comes a point when money doesn't trump all.

So maybe Europe should let Europeans be the wealthy ones, rather than losing them to the US?

US tech is so dominant because the US was the worlds benevolent superpower.

You've changed, we're adapting accordingly.


You might think I am trying to put down Europe, but the reality is that I am trying to make a Europe that can stand on it's own.

The economic rifts that a hard pull away from US support would create almost certainly will fracture the EU, give rise to nationalist leaders, and weaken support for Eastern Europe.

What's happening right now is exactly what Russia wants. Big brother America going away, so Russia only has to deal with countries that have been been on a 30 year status quo cruise control.


Apple is a bit of a terrible example. They're not profitable unless they offshore hardware assembly, and their service revenue is considered an anticompetitive monopoly even domestically. The only way they got to this point was by fucking over American labor and the free market.

If you account for the market damages that Apple is responsible for, the situation is already catastrophic. The EU has every justification to decouple themselves from capricious and unaccountable businesses like Apple, Google and Microsoft.


Guidelines | FAQ | Lists | API | Security | Legal | Apply to YC | Contact

Search: